British Rail Class 395

PullmanCo wrote:I'll believe the 140-mph operation when I see it. Two different train sets preceded the Javelin with the promise of 140-mph running. Both of them never exceeded 125 mph in revenue service, due to various excuses.

In both cases - I assume you are referring to the Virgin Pendolini trains and the British Rail Mark 4 for the East Coast route - were dependent on track being upgraded. But the track of High Speed One is designed entirely for high speed. I am sure they will run at that speed, slightly less than Eurostar, which already runs at full designed speed.

Correct; I was not referring to HS1 (why did they change the name from CTRL?). So will the Pendolino and Class 91 be following the Javelin into 140-mph operation?

PullmanCo wrote:Correct; I was not referring to HS1 (why did they change the name from CTRL?). So will the Pendolino and Class 91 be following the Javelin into 140-mph operation?

125mph is the maximum speed allowed in the UK with trackside signalling. 140mph won't be premitted until cab based signalling systems have been installed on the West Coast and East Coast Mainlines (2027 for WCML and from 2018 for ECML).

So IOW, it will never happen. BR cannot say that they didn't know about this back in 1988 when the Class 91 first appeared. Why is the ECML upgrade still nine years away? This will mean that (if plans do not change) it took 30 years to upgrade the signaling following the arrival of motive power and rolling stock for 140-mph operation. So, apart from the CTRL, the Javelin will be another 125-mph train.

So, apart from the CTRL, the Javelin will be another 125-mph train.

I am not aware of any plans to use these trains on any other lines than the ones for which they are designed.

They will be used on HS1 at 140 MPH and the third rail feeders at line speed. So, they won't appear on 125 mph lines.

Why did the CTRL become HS1? One part of the reason was the desire of some interests to promote more high speed lines. The next one would be HS2. The Tories have promised to build one or more if they win the next election. The current rail minister, Lord Adonis, is said to be sympathetic. We shall see.

If Hitachi win the contract for the replacement inter-city trains,the 'Intercity Express Programme' , then the electric version will likely be based on the Javelin.

Chafford1 wrote:If Hitachi win the contract for the replacement inter-city trains,the 'Intercity Express Programme' , then the electric version will likely be based on the Javelin.

The main stupidity of separating the track ownership from the train operators is that track and train need to be designed together. The IEP trains will be no faster than the track and signalling allow. (The most obvious problem of the track/train divide occurred when the new trains on Southern revealed that the power supplies had not been upgraded to suit their increased power demands). Railtrack then had to build new substations in a hurry.

track and train need to be designed together

If by that you mean that the train needs to be built to suit the railway, then we've had close to two centuries' practice for that, and certainly more than a half-century when it came to high speed efforts.

PullmanCo wrote:

track and train need to be designed together

If by that you mean that the train needs to be built to suit the railway, then we've had close to two centuries' practice for that, and certainly more than a half-century when it came to high speed efforts.

A few years ago the franchise owner of South Central (currently called Southern) arranged for the leasing company to order a very large number of new trains to replace the old slam door fleet. The whole process of design, building and delivery went through until someone discovered that the track owner, at that time Railtrack, had not been consulted on power demand. There then had to be a crash programme of upgrading the power supplies at enormous expense. While that was going on the trains were only half the intended length. The power upgrade is now complete and the service is back to normal. (I find the new trains rather boring but they work and seem to be reliable with few breakdowns.)

The Javelins, however, have been designed for the particular lines they will be used on. I see no reason to believe they will be used on any other line. So this objection that they will be restricted to 125 if they are used on the East Coast Main line is spurious. They won't. The numbers ordered are rather limited and there will not be a surplus.
It will be interesting to see whether they do attract the usage hoped for.

Here's a 12 coach Javelin on a recent test run on High Speed 1:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mG51uySHl2U

Chafford1 wrote:Here's a 12 coach Javelin on a recent test run on High Speed 1:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mG51uySHl2U

I see from the rail press that there is still considerable doubt about the IEP programme. For one thing ministers are now talking (at last) about extending electrification of the Great Western and other lines.

It must be doubted how serious they are as the present government has put so much money into "rescuing" the banks - if that is what they have done - that there may be little or no money for real investment in the foreseeable. Moreover they don't look a good bet to win the next election, so whatever they may think, it's another government that would have to carry out any plans.

The only sample of their policy is in London where Boris Johnson has cancelled all the new tram proposals.

this objection that they will be restricted to 125 if they are used on the East Coast Main line is spurious. They won't

What is being put in place to insure they won't? If the Class 91s will still have to run at 125 mph, then so will the Javelins.

PullmanCo wrote:

this objection that they will be restricted to 125 if they are used on the East Coast Main line is spurious. They won't

What is being put in place to insure they won't? If the Class 91s will still have to run at 125 mph, then so will the Javelins.

The Javelins are designed to run only on a High Speed line with all the trimmings. So, the question of what they might do on the East Coast Main line doesn't arise, as they won't run there.

This very day the government has announced that a variant will be ordered from the Japanese that will run on the East Coast line, and also on the Great Western. Those will be limited to 125 and will not be capable of more.

The whole thing looks like it's just making no sense. HS1 allows 186 mph; 140 mph is too slow for it. Off the HS1, the 395-class is supposed to run no faster than 100 mph. Looks like a case of "why bother?" to me.

PullmanCo wrote:The whole thing looks like it's just making no sense. HS1 allows 186 mph; 140 mph is too slow for it. Off the HS1, the 395-class is supposed to run no faster than 100 mph. Looks like a case of "why bother?" to me.

I don't think you are well informed about local conditions in Britain. I suggest you subscribe to one of the many rail magazines available here. Our system may be, in some respects, a bit behind some systems in Europe, but it is far in advance of anything in the US.