Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

8th Notch wrote:Track layout of accident area.

Noting that the incident occurred at Silica near the bottom of the page. The Amtrak train was held "five miles away" which would have placed it at the top of the page (probably "N.E. Cayce") before it was cleared by the dispatcher to pass through the area with a signal suspension.

DutchRailnut wrote:The FBI involvement probably has to do with crew member swearing that he lined switch for main...

Is there a link to a report you can provide? I've looked at the NTSB website and the local Columbia So. Car. news, can't find anything about freight crew swearing they properly lined switch to main track. Do you mean, since the FBI got involved it can be inferred the freight crew member must have sworn he left the switch lined for main track?

would you like find a link to word " probably "

The FBI will invite themselves to any major transportation incident like this. Their presence is to be expected as standard practice and is not an indicator of anything.

It does not help when the first thing people say about an incident is vandalism/terrorism. People expect the FBI to investigate such claims.

DutchRailnut wrote:would you like find a link to word " probably "

Okay so I guess you mean you were inferring from the FBI entering the investigation, that it meant the CSX crew or crew member swore they had lined and locked the siding switch back to the main track position. Judging by some of the reactions to your post I don't think that was completely clear to some people. I have been waiting for the NTSB to give some indication of what the CSX crew said. They interviewed them last Monday.

[NTSB board member Robert] Sumwalt says they interviewed the CSX crew, the train dispatcher and the surviving Amtrak crew members. Link to ABC Columbia SC

I would guess the CSX crew member who was supposed to have lined and locked the switch back to the proper position isn't going to say anything other than they are quite sure they did so. They apparently filled out a switch position form attesting to the fact. Not likely, when asked by the NTSB investigators, that they're suddenly going to remember that they didn't line the switch back to the main track position.

Does anyone know how much time elapsed between the CSX crew reporting the switch properly aligned and the Amtrak accident?

On a side note, an article from the Associated Press today revealed that Amtrak typically pays all Legal claims from crash victims regardless of whether Amtrak had any responsibility in the cause of the accident or not. That's rather interesting and screwed up to hear. I would think that if in this case, the CSX crew caused the accident by not realigning the switch to its proper position that CSX should be responsible to compensate the victims and Amtrak for damages to it's equipment. It states that the last time Amtrak Didn't pay for the legal claims from victims was after the collision after Chase where Conrail paid up. Something is really screwy about that arrangement that Amtrak has with host freight RR companies.

I personally still don't expect the FBI to be involved with every accident. I would expect them to be briefed on the accident by NTSB and local law enforcement, but I would only expect their involvement if they feel they need to be there or if asked to be brought in. I wouldn't even say that if the CSX crew said that they absolutely did line and lock the switch properly that the FBI would come in just for that reason alone. I do personally feel that they are there because the threat has always been there, and I suppose in these times that we live in, it must be looked into regardless of the situation. I would even say that the FBI probably did not take part in the Hoboken accident or the Atlantic terminal accident. So they obviously are selective in what they chose to take part in.

I think the reality is, whenever there are fatalities the local law enforcement agency has to investigate, too. Even if it seems obvious that the deaths were the result of an accident -- no criminal intent -- if lives are lost they have to make that official determination. The derailment in North Philadelphia was investigated by the Philadelphia Police Department, the Philadelphia District Attorney's office and the FBI. The FBI concluded fairly quickly that the incident was not terrorist-related and the local authorities determined the derailment was accidental, that no criminal charges were warranted. Even in the grade crossing collision at Crozet Virginia, Secret Service agents on board the train at first responded as though the collision was staged as a way to stop the train as a prelude to a terrorist attack. They quickly determined that was not the case. The FBI also responded to that scene. When something like this happens, before anyone knows exactly why or what, agencies like the FBI want to get investigators to the scene quickly in case it does turn out to be criminal. In order to preserve the scene as much as possible and prevent the accidental destruction of evidence.

As for when the freight train tied up on the siding, I have read it was within two hours of the incident, possibly as short a time as less than an hour. That the freight was tied down around 2:00 AM and the collision happened thirty-five minutes later.

I seem to remember Mr. Norman once stated that Amtrak's contract with the Class 1's stipulates that they will indemnify the Class 1 against all claims, fault regardless. Perhaps he could weigh in on this one, as it will color the after effects of this tragic accident.

I just happened to see this news report literally a few minutes ago. It was put up on a Fox News site this morning:

Amtrak's ability to offer national rail service is governed by separately negotiated track usage agreements with 30 different railroads. All the deals share a common trait: They're "no fault," according to a September 2017 presentation delivered by Amtrak executive Jim Blair as part of a Federal Highway Administration seminar. No fault means Amtrak takes full responsibility for its property and passengers and the injuries of anyone hit by a train. The "host railroad" that operates the tracks must only be responsible for its property and employees. Link

One of the few exceptions was the Chase Maryland collision in 1987. In that case, the Conrail engineer's actions were criminally negligent and Conrail paid the claims. But in most cases, "Amtrak pays." Also from the Fox News story:

[In the Chase incident] Conrail paid. But instead of taking on more responsibility going forward, railroads went in the opposite direction, recalls a former Amtrak board member who spoke to the AP. After Conrail was held responsible in the Chase crash, he said, Amtrak got "a lot of threats from the other railroads."...Because Amtrak operates on the freight railroads' tracks and relies on the railroads' dispatchers to get passenger trains to their destinations on time, Amtrak executives concluded they couldn't afford to pick a fight, a former Amtrak board member said.

So the thought is that Amtrak is responsible. If a CSX employee could be found criminally negligent they could hold CSX responsible but only at the risk of blowing up their track usage agreements and possibly losing access or paying more for their use of CSX track (or at minimum get poor treatment via freight dispatchers). In other words, don't poke the bear.

I think the arrangement Amtrak has is fairly standard in the railroad business. My understanding is, freight railroads that gain operating rights on host roads also usually have a 'no fault' agreement with the owning road. That the 'non-owning' railroad is responsible for costs, claims and damages arising from accidents involving their trains, regardless of who was at fault. That the host road's position is, 'We'll grant you operating rights but we will not assume liability for your trains.' Even in a case like Cayce where the accident appears to be the failure of the CSX freight crew to correctly follow procedures. I think the rationale is, whether it's Amtrak or a regional freight line, there is not enough financial gain for the owning road (in this case CSX) to make granting track rights worthwhile financially if they have to assume full liability for accidents.

Tommy Meehan wrote:I just happened to see this news report literally a few minutes ago. It was put up on a Fox News site this morning:

Amtrak's ability to offer national rail service is governed by separately negotiated track usage agreements with 30 different railroads. All the deals share a common trait: They're "no fault," according to a September 2017 presentation delivered by Amtrak executive Jim Blair as part of a Federal Highway Administration seminar. No fault means Amtrak takes full responsibility for its property and passengers and the injuries of anyone hit by a train. The "host railroad" that operates the tracks must only be responsible for its property and employees. Link

One of the few exceptions was the Chase Maryland collision in 1987. In that case, the Conrail engineer's actions were criminally negligent and Conrail paid the claims. But in most cases, "Amtrak pays." Also from the Fox News story:

[In the Chase incident] Conrail paid. But instead of taking on more responsibility going forward, railroads went in the opposite direction, recalls a former Amtrak board member who spoke to the AP. After Conrail was held responsible in the Chase crash, he said, Amtrak got "a lot of threats from the other railroads."...Because Amtrak operates on the freight railroads' tracks and relies on the railroads' dispatchers to get passenger trains to their destinations on time, Amtrak executives concluded they couldn't afford to pick a fight, a former Amtrak board member said.

At Chase Amtrak was the owner of the track and ConRail was the tenant, thus the liability tables were turned.

mmi16 wrote:At Chase Amtrak was the owner of the track and ConRail was the tenant, thus the liability tables were turned.

Under no fault each party would take care of their own damages. Amtrak would pay for the loss to their equipment and any damages paid to their employees and passengers. Conrail would pay for their losses and damages. If I read correctly, at Chase the "guilty" party (Conrail) paid all damages.