All Things Cascades incl Vancouver

Vincent wrote:46,000 passengers rode within the Eugene to Portland segment while 45,000 passengers rode from somewhere south of Portland to somewhere within the Portland to Seattle segment (page 12). Doing the math, that's about 63 riders per trip (2 Talgo cars or 1 Horizon coach). Not good numbers

Not good numbers.

Safe statement to note that with Messrs. Halstead and Vincent residing in the area, and are Cascade patrons, we are endowed around here with on the ground reporting of passenger train affairs within this region.

Vincent wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 9:23 pm https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/file ... Report.pdf

According to the 2022 Cascades Performance Report, 46,000 passengers rode within the Eugene to Portland segment while 45,000 passengers rode from somewhere south of Portland to somewhere within the Portland to Seattle segment (page 12). Doing the math, that's about 63 riders per trip (2 Talgo cars or 1 Horizon coach). Not good numbers, but I would wait for the 2023 report before making any major service decisions.

Oregon corridor ridership stats:
https://www.oregon.gov/odot/RPTD/RPTD%2 ... ummary.pdf

Albany (45k), Eugene (123k) and Salem (73k) all had record ridership (at least post-2010, the date of the earliest publicly available info)in FY 23. Don't know how that breaks down on ridership to points north or south of Portland (or going to/from Cali). The numbers are on the Great American Stations website. One caveat: Amtrak report number on a FY basis, WA uses CY.

ODOT's Q3 2023 Report to Legislature shows strong ridership gains in 2023 for the Oregon funded trains between Portland and Eugene. Total ridership was significantly higher than 2022 and even higher than the 2019 baseline. I couldn't find any information about ridership at individual stations, however.

Third quarter ridership report: https://www.oregon.gov/odot/About/GR/20 ... Report.pdf

I think the data sources tell two sides of the same story. Interestingly, Portland (which had a nice recovery--523k in FY23 vs. 375k in FY22) is still well below its high water mark of 673k in 2010. To complete the Oregon picture, Oregon City also hit a record at 16k in 2023.

Station Aficionado wrote:Albany (45k), Eugene (123k) and Salem (73k) all had record ridership...The numbers are on the Great American Stations website.

Cool records.

Call me, when those three heavyweight Horizon coaches are at 100% load factor. In July (the highest ridership month) the average train had 100 boardings south of Portland. That is nothing to be proud of. That means that ODOT is wasting a ton of diesel fuel hauling around two heavyweight Horizon coaches that are carrying nothing but empty nitrogen around, spewing noxious diesel fumes, when two buses would be more environmentally friendly for the job (not to mention require less taxpayer subsidy, and since they are operated by private contract carriers they would actually pay taxes.) 20 years of service and only 100 riders a train (and trending down)? Meh.

Wigwag, do you think there is something else wrong with the operation? I make a lot of posts about service levels, timing/scheduling, market rate trackage rights... I don't doubt your assessment but find it hard to believe that in such an environmentally conscious area with a big university, they have such poor ridership. Should the schedules be moved? Fares adjusted for students, state workers, professors? Equipment adjusted to carry bikes and skateboards, maybe camping gear? A dedicated bus from PUS to PDX for out-of-towners?

No service or other mode runs at 100% load factor. An average of 100 riders means some days/sections more,some less. So you would need more than 2 bus to cover the route.
But I would agree Amtrak is very fuel in efficient. A modern Dmu would use a lot less, on par with 2 or 3 bus.

The Cascades schedule did change on 12.11.23. In Oregon, the first northbound train from Eugene was changed from 530am to 745am. Two more roundtrips were also added between Seattle and Portland.

But I would agree Amtrak is very fuel in efficient. A modern Dmu would use a lot less, on

Wouldn't a truly modern DMU would be powered by hydrogen?

It would seem lithium battery hybrid is the way most are going . I'm not sure a hydrogen powered DMU could recover regenerative battery power , the way a battery hybrid can.
I doubt many pure diesel DMU's will be ordered in the future in Europe, and probably elsewhere , as most operations would be seeking green credentials and savings.
We were in a city yesterday , and a diesel bus pulled up beside us. what a noisy , smelly thing , I instantly thought , as the previous city we had been in had battery buses .
Will pretty quickly become the norm , I think .

David Benton wrote:It would seem lithium battery hybrid is the way most are going . I'm not sure a hydrogen powered DMU could recover regenerative battery power , the way a battery hybrid can.
I doubt many pure diesel DMU's will be ordered in the future in Europe, and probably elsewhere , as most operations would be seeking green credentials and savings.
We were in a city yesterday , and a diesel bus pulled up beside us. what a noisy , smelly thing , I instantly thought , as the previous city we had been in had battery buses .
Will pretty quickly become the norm , I think .

If the internal combustion driven multiple units (hydrogen or diesel) have batteries and are driven by electric traction motors and have dynamic braking, the dynamic braking could be converted to regenerative braking by charging the batteries.

If the multiple units draw electricity from an external source, the energy source issue is externalized.

NotYou wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 2:13 am

David Benton wrote:It would seem lithium battery hybrid is the way most are going . I'm not sure a hydrogen powered DMU could recover regenerative battery power , the way a battery hybrid can.
I doubt many pure diesel DMU's will be ordered in the future in Europe, and probably elsewhere , as most operations would be seeking green credentials and savings.
We were in a city yesterday , and a diesel bus pulled up beside us. what a noisy , smelly thing , I instantly thought , as the previous city we had been in had battery buses .
Will pretty quickly become the norm , I think .

If the internal combustion driven multiple units (hydrogen or diesel) have batteries and are driven by electric traction motors and have dynamic braking, the dynamic braking could be converted to regenerative braking by charging the batteries.

If the multiple units draw electricity from an external source, the energy source issue is externalized.

That is true but I would say the cost of putting in the Hydrogen infrastructure would be close to bigger batteries/and/or more electrication. And you still need electricity to produce Hydrogen, though it is generally proposed to use excess renewable sources to make Hydrogen.

David Benton wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:59 pm It would seem lithium battery hybrid is the way most are going . I'm not sure a hydrogen powered DMU could recover regenerative battery power , the way a battery hybrid can.
I doubt many pure diesel DMU's will be ordered in the future in Europe, and probably elsewhere , as most operations would be seeking green credentials and savings.
We were in a city yesterday , and a diesel bus pulled up beside us. what a noisy , smelly thing , I instantly thought , as the previous city we had been in had battery buses .
Will pretty quickly become the norm , I think .

You got a problem that's easily demonstrated in northern regions: Walk outside (in winter).

The lithium batteries don't perform well in very cold conditions. Tesla cars are having issues charging and holding charge because of it.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:03 pm

David Benton wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:59 pm It would seem lithium battery hybrid is the way most are going . I'm not sure a hydrogen powered DMU could recover regenerative battery power , the way a battery hybrid can.
I doubt many pure diesel DMU's will be ordered in the future in Europe, and probably elsewhere , as most operations would be seeking green credentials and savings.
We were in a city yesterday , and a diesel bus pulled up beside us. what a noisy , smelly thing , I instantly thought , as the previous city we had been in had battery buses .
Will pretty quickly become the norm , I think .

You got a problem that's easily demonstrated in northern regions: Walk outside (in winter).

The lithium batteries don't perform well in very cold conditions. Tesla cars are having issues charging and holding charge because of it.

so you insulate and heat them .

David Benton wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 7:21 pm so you insulate and heat them .

So what do you use for heat? Di you have a heated garage? Battery power all day while you work to keep battery warm?. If you can actually go after work do you dare run the car heater to get home? All in all thanks but no thanks