Adirondack Suspended (Just like that its gone)

Amtrak should maintain as much of the route as possible while they wait out those mean Canadians They should not have to pay for or maintain trackage in Canada, however they could buy it since they need it "to turn around their trains". Canada could charge Amtrak property tax! Canada should be motivated to repair the track & get the train back running. There is lots of traffic going between NYC & Montreal, some portion of which would like to take a train. On the other hand, the highway route is pretty straight and "efficient"

BandA wrote:Amtrak should maintain as much of the route as possible while they wait out those mean Canadians They should not have to pay for or maintain trackage in Canada, however they could buy it since they need it "to turn around their trains". Canada could charge Amtrak property tax! Canada should be motivated to repair the track & get the train back running. There is lots of traffic going between NYC & Montreal, some portion of which would like to take a train. On the other hand, the highway route is pretty straight and "efficient"

I’ve been on I-87 as recently as last month and I can tell you that outside of Albany there’s virtually zero traffic on that road from just outside of NYC all the way to Rouses Point.

Maybe I went at a good time or something because from my perspective, it was very, very low trafficked.

This issue is not unlike the problem that exists where U.S. Interstate 89 (I89) ends at the border and Quebec Route 133 (a two line road in places) provides the connection to Quebec Autoroute 30 (which still has not been extended to the border.)

The U.S. has provided an interstate highway to the border but on the other side it is... a little different. (just have a look at Google Street view if you have never driven Route 133).

There is no simple solution to this problem. The rail corridor in question is owned by Canadian National Railways, a public company located in another country (Canada). CN hardly uses the line from what I understand so they have no reason to upgrade the line beyond what is needed for their freight service.

Neither Amtrak or the U.S. Department of Transportation should pay for the upgrade of the CN line in Canada, just as the US DOT should not pay for extending I89 to Autoroute 30.

The only solution is for Transport Canada (the federal government) to fund the upgrade of this rail corridor to modern-day North American track standards as part of larger plan to create cross-border passenger rail service between Canada and the United States.

The problem of course is that the U.S, Canada and the involved states have been talking about doing this for 20+ years.

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:34 am

dgvrengineer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 5:41 pm Is it not possible to use CPKC all the way to Montreal? There must be a way to switch back to CN somewhere near the Central station.

There is, its called Windsor station. BUT it is nothing more than a commuter stop now. There are no facilities and no way to turn the train. As for connecting to CN if it is a case of not wanting us on a lightly used subdivision there is no way they are going to want us on the Montreal sub to "Cape" if I remember correctly. It is THE main CN through fare into and out of Montreal. Its busy always has been, when I was going up there in the greys we spent plenty of time waiting on some long slow CN freight trains coming off Victoria Bridge to clear so we could either get in or out of the VIA MMC.

Afaik the old Windsor station is no more. There's a parallel with LaSalle St. in Chicago, where they essentially moved the station a block south (but they didn't change the name) and provided only a row of platforms and no more facilities than needed for commuters rushing to and from their trains with neither the time nor the inclination to linger in the station. I don't know whether the authorities will actually set up arrangements for pre-clearance for the Montrealer at Central Station, but they certainly won't do it at two stations.

Before COVID pre clearance and customs was due to begin in Central Station but like everything else that is on hold until??? As for Windsor I do not dee it happening, there was a rumor quite a while back we would start going there because CN had another issue with Amtrak and the RSP. It never happened. This too shall blow over, however it comes to pass.

I don't think there's nearly as much demand for NYC-YUL as some people are making it out to be. There are about 1800 airline seats a day each way, and all of it on 50-70 seat regional jets. There's no way that a train that takes 6x longer with 300+ seats is getting filled up.

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:11 pm I don't think there's nearly as much demand for NYC-YUL as some people are making it out to be. There are about 1800 airline seats a day each way, and all of it on 50-70 seat regional jets. There's no way that a train that takes 6x longer with 300+ seats is getting filled up.

Pre Covid sorry Mr eolesen that train was sold out or close to it most weekends and half to three quarters full weekdays during the summer months. Canadian GP, Jazz Festival, Old Montreal, or just the city itself. Back in my days in the greys you could make the jump from the Adirondack to VIA's The Ocean a simple cross platform jaunt or drop of at St Lambert It was never guaranteed but it could be done. During the winter moths the train was never busy being "off season". However, school breaks with the kids from Plattsburg State we could easily fill a coach sometimes two granted they were not going to MTR

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:11 pm I don't think there's nearly as much demand for NYC-YUL as some people are making it out to be. There are about 1800 airline seats a day each way, and all of it on 50-70 seat regional jets. There's no way that a train that takes 6x longer with 300+ seats is getting filled up.

Like I said, having been on I-87 just last month and driving through Rouses Point south to Albany, there’s virtually zero traffic between the border and Albany. It’s a whole lot of Mountains and pretty much nothing else.

On a side note, let’s not forget that the Vermonter is also being kept with a terminus in St. Albans because of that pre clearance facility that has yet to be built. So that’s two services hampered by Canadian politics.

I guess the 1973 legislation mandating Amtrak establish international routes has been forgotten.

This legislation resulted in Amtrak establishing The Montrealer, Adirondack, Maple Leaf, Niagra Rainbow. Inter-American, and Pacific International.

The Inter-American was an "almost but not quite. It operated Ft. Worth-Laredo and later extended to St. Louis. The intent was to have a Coach and Sleeper shoved X the International Bridge and added to the consist of the NdeM's Aztec Eagle, mush as was done pre-Amtrak with an NY-Mexico DF Pullman line.

Obviously, it never made it. They did have an English speaking NdeM representative "shepherd" the connecting passengers X the border and assist with obtaining Carte Tourista (no passports required back then).

So I guess things are just down to the Maple Leaf and the Cascade.

In the May 1965 Official Guide (which I have pages scanned), the segment of the D&H through Adirondack
between Montreal (Windsor) and the border at Rouses Point was owned by the Napierville Junction Railway,
which was based in Albany.

The track splits at Rouses Point, which is the point of no return, either Windsor (now Lucien L'Allier) via the Napierville route or Gare Centrale via St-Jean-sur-Richelieu. The latter has only one freight customer, a grain mill.

So the only practical route reaches an impractical station and the only practical station its reached by an impractical route, with little prospect of pre-clearance in any case. What now?

Mr. R36, regarding your immediate, Naperville Junction Railway was the D&H's Canadian subsidiary, but obviously its operations were controlled from D&H HQ in Albany.

Train60 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:39 pmThere is no simple solution to this problem. The rail corridor in question is owned by Canadian National Railways, a public company located in another country (Canada). CN hardly uses the line from what I understand so they have no reason to upgrade the line beyond what is needed for their freight service.

Agree. CN is a publicly traded corporation owned by its stockholders, the same as freight railroads in the USA. Assuming Canadian corporate law is similar to that of the USA, the CN board of directors and management has a fiduciary obligation to act in the best interest of its investors. That means that expenses incurred such as maintenance and operation of the relevant track in sufficient reasonable condition to be used by Amtrak are legally proper only if there is a reasonable return on such invested monies. If a slow class of trackage yields the optimum return from freight trackage, CN should not be expected to maintain the track at a higher class to accommodate Amtrak service unless CN is fully compensated by Amtrak for all incremental expenses.

That could be managed by building the maintenance costs into the charge for trackage rights, except that the amount demanded by CN would probably make Amtrak's knees buckle.

I heard a number today to get the train back up and running on CN, its to crazy to be true. But then again this is not the first time CN has held Amtrak hostage on this route. Also CN charges some of the highest trackage rights fees for this train always has. Like I said from the start, it's about money always has been.