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  • Taking Pictures on NJT Now Requires Permit

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: lensovet, Kaback9, nick11a

 #20484  by Otto Vondrak
 
This is the email I got from NJT Customer Service today:
Dear Mr. Vondrak:

NJ TRANSIT appreciates your interest. NJ TRANSIT does not, and never has, prohibited photography. However, please know that due to increased security concerns, we now require any individual wishing to photograph NJ TRANSIT equipment or property to have a company-issued permit.

Please telephone Angela Thomas (973) 491-8078, of our staff for the particulars on obtaining a permit to photograph NJ TRANSIT property.

NJ TRANSIT thanks you for your interest.

Sincerely,

Fred Bauer
NJ TRANSIT Customer Service Department

 #20508  by nick11a
 
Thanks Otto! If things start getting sticky for me, I may just have to invest in a permit.

 #20513  by CNJFAN
 
Thanks Otto for the permit info.
I already phoned the lady at NJT and she was VERY pleasant.
I encourage people to follow through with this so they don't run into problems for themselves.

 #20521  by EDM5970
 
There was an article on the front page (top, right) of "The Times" (of Trenton) this morning. I don't know if it's available on line. The gist of the article makes it sound like NJT is taking things to an extreme.

The other thing that hasn't gotten any attention, at least to my knowledge, are some of the railroad specific or regional area interest groups. I get one, and it seems like anytime someone leaves a terminal, or calls a signal and it is heard by someone with a scanner, it shows up in my email. (Once in awhile, military moves are mentioned.) To my thinking, that may be more harmful as taking pictures. Freight movements are more irregular than NJT, which operates on a schedule.

I'm not panicking, or trying to be an alarmist here, just trying to put some things into perspective. I'm not even a photographer-

(Rivetjoint posted his take on this topic as I was typing the above-)

 #20547  by trainfreak
 
Once you get the permitt how long does it last and how much does it cost?
 #20594  by Gilbert B Norman
 
In New York as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/21/nyreg ... ubway.html

I'm not certain how the privilege of taking photography of anything can be considered some kind of civil right. If I were to note anyone taking photos of any of my property, let alone myself, I think the burden would be upon them to give me an acceptable explanation.

While intangible in nature and scope, that "image" of a person or tangible property you have taken belongs to someone. To lawfully take something normally is associated with either a contract, or, germane to this discussion, a privilege, as distinct from a right.

If the repsonse received by Mr. Vondraak from NJT regarding photography on their property is indicative of the actual policy in place e.g."we're too busy to waste our time issuing permits"; "Sir, I don't care what that piece of paper says; I'm the law out here", it seems fair and reasonable to me.

But I guess I had best set forth the "disclaimers":

I have not taken a rail photograph in some twenty years.

The last time I was on railroad property solely to observe, but not photo, rail operations was during May 1993 when at Seabrook, MD I stood on the platform expecting a Metroliner that was to have had the Sweedish X-2000 set for a consist. During the space of 20 some minutes, first an Amtrak C&S crew drove by, then a local polics squad. No one said anything, but I was feeling quite uncomfortable and moved on without regard to observing the intended operation..

 #20598  by nick11a
 
trainfreak wrote:Once you get the permitt how long does it last and how much does it cost?
Yeah, I want to know that too. I believe it is in the 20 dollar range, right?

 #20605  by njt4172
 
I'M HEARING ANYTHING FROM $30.00 PER MONTH TO FREE.......I DOUBT ITS FREE, BUT WE CAN ALWAYS HOPE......

 #20613  by Jtgshu
 
From the Trenton Times article:
Although the agency hasn't publicized it, a policy was implemented at least as far back as 2000 that requires permits for people taking photos of agency property, according to NJ Transit spokeswoman Janet Hines.

The free permits can be obtained from the agency's real estate division, and it usually takes a day to obtain one after an application, which can be faxed or e-mailed, is completed, Hines said.


So this article says they are free (well, Janet Hines said they are free)

 #20614  by nick11a
 
Jtgshu wrote:From the Trenton Times article:
Although the agency hasn't publicized it, a policy was implemented at least as far back as 2000 that requires permits for people taking photos of agency property, according to NJ Transit spokeswoman Janet Hines.

The free permits can be obtained from the agency's real estate division, and it usually takes a day to obtain one after an application, which can be faxed or e-mailed, is completed, Hines said.


So this article says they are free (well, Janet Hines said they are free)
Well I hope there free. I don't have the money to spend $30 on permits every month!

 #20625  by rvrrhs
 
From the NYC Subway Forum...
rcbsd45 wrote:From thew website of local radio station WCBS, comes the following item aboiut the NYC TA's proposal to outlaw subway photography. Deatils can be found at:

http://wcbs880.com/local/NYC--SubwayPho ... _news_html
Today's Star-Ledger has its own article on this, noting the ban is on photographing both MTA's subways and buses. So NJT is not alone in this effort.

I still wonder how photography taken from property not belonging to the RR/bus line can be restricted in this way... Does this mean that you can't take a photo of NYC (or NJ) street life unless you make sure that there isn't a transit bus driving down the street? How soon before the Taxi & Limousine Commission issues its own photography ban?

Speaking as a "representative" of the tourism industry (I am an editor for NYC visitor & convention-planning guides), I don't see how any of this is enforceable when the photographer is not standing in/on transit agency property.
 #20645  by kevikens
 
The permits are free but that is not the important matter. They are good only for one place in a short time frame. Most rail fans go fom place to place, often spontneously and even if they were free and blanket permits the precedent being sat here is terrible for other civil liberties. I am convinced that the implications of this policy are frightening and not just for our hobby. Once again,as I have noted elsewhere, get on that phone to NJT, write that letter to the ACLU-NJ now.

 #20652  by Idiot Railfan
 
My 2 cents, although by the time I'm done, I may need change of a dollar.

1) As a few of you know, I get very suspicious of any person/organization that cites "security" for what turns out to be self-serving purposes. If you want to sell overpriced food and water, fine. Just don't mask that by saying people can't bring in their own bottle of Poland Spring for "security" reasons. Photos are often banned because officialdom isn't as concerned about security as they are about simply being seen in an unflattering light. Anyone familiar with George Orwell's "Animal Farm" might remember that any time the animals questioned the self-serving decisions of the pigs, the pigs simply replied, "Surely you don't want Jones back?" Now "security" is the catch-all answer to anyone who questions authority.

2) If some one needs photos of a building, person, etc. for sinister purposes, there has never been, and there will never be, a no-photography policy that will prevent that person from getting the photos, videotape, etc. that he needs. With cellphone cameras and ever-smaller digital cameras, it is extremely easy to conceal a camera.

3) Because photo bans are impossible to enforce, banning photography could actually be counter-productive and make it easier for potential terrorists. Questioning and chasing railfans (on lawful, public property) distracts police from the real search for terrorists. And more important, countless crimes have been solved because somebody taking a picture of a tree, train, friend, etc. also recorded the presence of a suspect in the background. So if a bombing or other act took place, having many photos of the site taken in the days, weeks and months prior to the event may help to identify suspects. Maybe officials think security cameras can do that job, but I think you can't have too many sets of eyes.

4) Taking photos from public places is one thing, but railroads do have a point about increasing vigilance of people trespassing to get photos. Where once walking down the tracks to a photo spot was not considered a big deal, a vandal, thief or terrorist could obscure their intent by pretending to be a railfan. (Imagine that: Somebody WANTING to look like a railfan!) Put a camera around Timothy McViegh's neck, and he'd look like any other railfan even though he might be scouting out an attack.

4) From an intellectual property viewpoint, the law is pretty simple. If you can see something from public property, it is basically in the public domain. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame sued a photographer who sold photos of the outside of the building, claiming the photographer violated the Hall's rights to its images. The courts, all the way to the Supreme Court, said that anything inside is their property, and a photographer would need permission to reproduce those images. However, this photographer's shots were taken of the outside of the building from public property, and the R&R Hall of Fame could not dictate the use of its image when viewed from public areas. Otherwise a photo or post card of a city skyline would require the permission of everybuilding owner in the shot. Simply not realistic. There are limits. This ruling does not outweigh people's reasonable expectations of privacy (i.e you don't have a right to photograph somebody through a bedroom window, even from the sidewalk) and legitimate concerns for safety and security can prevail, and probably would in the case of transportation facilities.

But as I said, no photo ban will stop a determined terrorist from getting what he needs.

 #20654  by rvrrhs
 
Bravo, Idiot Railfan!

I hope one of the lurkers from NJT's administration reads this and has a little lightbulb go on in their head.
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