SEPTA and the missing Clockers

jfrey40535 wrote:Its disgusting the number of things we've spent money on studying but may never build.

It depends on what your perspective is. If your goal is to get money from Washington and Harrisburg (other people's money) and hand it out to consulting firms and other contractors while avoiding anything that makes SEPTA's operating deficit worse, it's an ideal situation.

Lucius Kwok wrote:It's a DVRPC study, called the "Regional Rail Improvement Study" in the SEPTA FY 2005 Capital Budget.

That's right, thank you. The Regional Rail Improvement Study has been going on a while, and has had several substudies, including one on speeding up the R5 Lansdale/Doylestown (predictable results: fix the Doylestown power supply, reschedule meets, reduce the number of station stops...), one on the cost-effectiveness of different platform configurations (converting to high platforms gives you the least bang for the buck in terms of speeding up service--raising the low platforms by about a foot and getting them consistent in height is much more cost-effective), and the aforementioned PHL-NYP through service study.

Essentially this is the only strategic planning being done for the railroad right now--SEPTA has abdicated its responsibility in this area, which makes you wonder why SEPTA should continue to have responsibility for operating the railroad.

Lucius Kwok wrote:SEPTA's doing (yet another) feasibility study on running through trains to NYC. That means they're spending money on it but not doing anything just now.

You mean that they are spending money, and when it is done with recommendations in favor...oops, we spent all the money!

jfrey40535 wrote:Anyone knows where that deadhead p/p comes from? Did it already do a run in from Trenton?

They complain about high operating costs (and this issue on the 15), why not pickup passengers at 30th, and charge a premium for an express to Trenton?

That push-pull set deadheads directly from the Frazer shop to Trenton by going to the eastern limits of Zoo on the SEPTA main, and then changing ends and reversing to Trenton (just so it remains pointing the same way as the other p/p sets, rather than run through the NY-PGH subway).

Bill R. wrote:At one time, there was discussion in certain quarters about the possibility of using SEPTA AEM 7's and Bombardier coaches as part of an equipment pool with NJ Transit to provide a Clocker-type service between Phila. & NYC, much the same way equipment is pooled for the joint NJT/Metro North Port Jervis Line.

To my way of thinking, this approach makes a great deal of sense. This existing equipment can be utilized in lieu of SEPTA paying more cash (they will still have to fund operations), something they are going to scream about given the current financial circumstances.

NJ Transit, hard pressed for extra equipment at the moment, gains some relief by not having to produce as many extra vehicles as they would otherwise if operating the service unilaterally.

Win-win is what it is usually called. Except in the proprietary (my domain here / your empire over there) world of transportation agencies.

One quick plug: I don't know if the existing Clockers stop at Cornwells Heights, but the new service should.

A good idea, except SEPTA can't spare the equipment, and even if they could, they'd have to reconfigure the push-pull sets into 10 car trains at minimum, with at least 2 cab cars in a train for restroom capability.

And inserting a restroom-equipped NJT coach into the mix would not work, as the door control and some other functions are incompatible with SEPTA's fleet.

I would agree Silverliner, however, its a shame that SEPTA's push-pull sets sit and do nothing except for 1 round trip a day. This is really a gross waste of equipment, and has to drive up their operating cost. Although if I'm not mistaken, MARC operates the same way with ALL of their equipment (peak hour service only).

Its a shame that they can't be made longer, but in NJ, a 6 car train just doesen't cut the mustard.

jfrey40535 wrote:I would agree Silverliner, however, its a shame that SEPTA's push-pull sets sit and do nothing except for 1 round trip a day. This is really a gross waste of equipment, and has to drive up their operating cost. Although if I'm not mistaken, MARC operates the same way with ALL of their equipment (peak hour service only).

I agree....I wouldn't mind seeing the Bombers running all day, as long as they could be scheduled to end up in position for their afternoon express assignments. But the stub nature of those express trips, which they are most suited for mostly prevents that. On the flip side, NJT manages well with push pulls on the M&E Lines, where station stops are almost as close together as some SEPTA stops.

The MARC Penn Line service operates hourly outside the rush hours on weekdays. The Camden and Brunswick/Martinsburg/Frederick services over CSX remain rush-hour only, and while Maryland has expressed a passing interest in midday service on both routes, CSX has been the stumbling block there with excessive freight congestion.

Still, they can also operate their diesel-hauled trains on all three lines interchangeably, while the electric-hauled trains are stuck on Penn Line runs exclusively.

jfrey40535 wrote:Its a shame that they can't be made longer, but in NJ, a 6 car train just doesen't cut the mustard.

That's for sure, on the NE Corridor line!

In the same vein, SEPTA can't handle trains longer than six cars anywhere, except at Market East (8 cars fully platformed) and Suburban Station (8 to 12 cars fully platformed, depending on the track).

I was once on a morning train down from West Trenton when some emergency forced SEPTA to combine two MU sets together for an inbound run into Center City. The combined train was a 10-car mix of Silverliners, and while the loads were accomodated easily, we fell further behind, as the train made double-stops at most of the stations down the line until Market East when they fully platformed the entire train with the rear door of the first car spotted at the extreme west end of the platform.

To put it in perspective....
Six cars: Long for SEPTA, short for NJ Transit.

jfrey40535 wrote:I would agree Silverliner, however, its a shame that SEPTA's push-pull sets sit and do nothing except for 1 round trip a day. This is really a gross waste of equipment, and has to drive up their operating cost.

No it isn't. Commuter rail ridership is dominated by the peak-hour peak-direction service. Considering that all that ridership is packed into 2 to 2-1/2 hours each direction, and all the rest of the ridership is spread across 15 hours or so, there's a huge difference in service density between peak and off peak.

Put another way, SEPTA's gotta run five- and six-car trains on some lines in the peak. Off-peak, they don't really need more than three cars anywhere. So that means you can protect the entire off-peak service just with the Silverliner IV cars.

Now if you're so concerned about maximizing equipment utilization, you can run the same level of service during the peak and let everyone who can't get on the train take the Schuylkill or I-95. I don't think we're gonna do that, and from the perspective of the entire transportation system, it would be a stupid idea. The peak is when commuter rail is most valuable, and providing incremental transportation capacity on the rails is a lot cheaper than doing so on the highway.

So as long as people work on weekdays from morning to late afternoon, we're gonna have a bunch of trains that make only two productive runs per day.

Silverliner II wrote:

A good idea, except SEPTA can't spare the equipment, and even if they could, they'd have to reconfigure the push-pull sets into 10 car trains at minimum, with at least 2 cab cars in a train for restroom capability.

I was discussing only the transfer of the three existing Clocker trains currently operated by Amtrak to joint NJT/SEPTA responsibility.

As there are three trains, I envision NJ Transit providing two trainsets and SEPTA providing one.

The existing Clockers do stop at Cornwells Heights; therefore the length of the existing Clocker trains (whatever they may be) don't seem to preclude stopping at stations within SEPTA territory. And Amtrak runs the full consist for the entire route length.

IIRC, when I last rode a Clocker train, the train length was eight cars. With the limited number of station stops made by the Clocker, eight cars may be sufficient.

SEPTA could manage to find eight cars and a locomotive if they knew how to run a railroad. The inherent slop in RRD schedules, coupled with imcompatible line pairing, artificially elevates RRD equipment requirements.

Having a bathroom would be a requirement. So install them. It would be a great deal less money than having to pay NJ Transit to completely provide the service.

Bill R. wrote:IIRC, when I last rode a Clocker train, the train length was eight cars. With the limited number of station stops made by the Clocker, eight cars may be sufficient.

Maybe even fewer, as those Amtrak cars had fewer seats than NJ Transit or SEPTA cars.

Having a bathroom would be a requirement. So install them. It would be a great deal less money than having to pay NJ Transit to completely provide the service.

You mean having SEPTA operate one of the trains? I'm not so sure. There's some administrative overhead in extending your territory--keeping crews qualified, making orders available at outlying points, etc. For NJT, those costs are already sunk because of the need to move equipment to the ACRL.

Matt Mitchell wrote:

You mean having SEPTA operate one of the trains?

Sorry for the confusion. I think I said in an earlier post that SEPTA would contribute to an equipment pool utilizing an arrangement similar to the one by which Metro-North provides equipment to NJ Transit for the operation of the Port Jervis Line.

Unless I'm misinformed, NJ Transit crews staff the Port Jervis Line for the entire length.

Conceptually, NJ Transit crews would staff all of the Clockers between Philadelphia and New York. One of the Clocker trainsets would be SEPTA equipment vs. being NJ Transit equipment.

NJ Transit crews would have to be trained concerning the minor differences between SEPTA and NJ Transit equipment.

Normal Clocker consists are 11 to 13 cars......your 8-car train was a shortie.

And believe it or not, the current SEPTA rail schedules and all the mis-matched line pairings actually resulted in use of less equipment and crews than some years back. Thanks to the usual shop margin SEPTA has, it does get rough when a train goes missing on a weekday.

As for me saying that the SEPTA-contributed set should be 10 cars, that's based on loads from Clocker riders beyond Trenton and the dislike of the center seat in the three-seaters that is bound to occur.

I don't think equipment pooling is the answer, since there is such a mismatch of consist lengths between Philly and NJ. A better solution would be to have SEPTA run more frequent service on the Trenton line, say every half hour, with every other train making limited stops, say:
30th
N Philly
Holmesburg
Cornwells
Levittown
Trenton

Silverliner II wrote:Normal Clocker consists are 11 to 13 cars......your 8-car train was a shortie.

Ten cars is not uncommon, too, at least on train #628. Last Friday's NJT replacement for Clocker #622 had 10 cars.

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/NJT- ... 5_05_13_04

Bob