Route 15 Trolley Operation

I'm starting this thread to discuss how the route 15 is operating as a trolley and how it is performing.

Unfortunately I'm starting with a rant about the wheelchair lift situation. Seems like the cars are getting bunched up too many times because of all the time lost with the loading/unloading of wheelchairs.

I'd like to know if it was even possible for SEPTA to apply for a waiver for the ADA requirement for this route since it was using vintage equipment.

I'd also like to know where in the ADA law it says you have to turn a mass transit line into a "Customized Community Transportation " service. I thought ADA says make "reasonable accomodation". Is it reasonable to tie everyone else up for one person's sake? For that matter, why aren't cars required to be ADA accessible? Why is the burden placed on buses and trolleys which were designed to move large amounts of people but not on cars, and yes I know you can get special controls on a car if your a parapalygic, but if cars were ADA every car sold in the U.S. would carry these features. If everyone was in a wheelchair it would be a different story. But requiring buses and trolleys to accomodate wheelchairs defeats the purpose of the bus route being there. Not to mention, when wheelchairs get on, seated passengers are displaced from their seats. On the New Flyers, each wheelchair displaces 5 seated passengers. It gets ugly when the buses are standing load.

For all the "accomdating" that we're doing (high level platforms, buses with ramps, automated stop announcements, computerized visual station announcement boards), it would be cheaper to buy these people cars! And on top of it, we the taxpayer still have to subsidize paratransit services too, so we pay for it with ADA transit vehicles, and again with the "CCT" service. Its a big problem for the 15 because of all the time involved loading these things and it brings the service to a halt on the rest of the line. Late at night when these things run on 30 minute headways you could end up waiting for a trolley for 45 minutes to an hour! In the middle of winter that doesen't sound like a reasonable accomodation to me.

When talking about how to accommodate the handicap, you really have to watch what you say. Like race and sex, disabilities are the forefront of the political correct movement. This is why, I think most agree, that the issue of the ADA, or more importantly, its compliance, is not looked at rationally. I myself spent five months in a wheelchair and needed equipment for a year to help walk until I was put back together right. During that time, I became very observant of what is available to the handicap and quite honestly, was surprised at what was accessible, and what was not. Since my accident, I noticed much has been improves in assisting wheelchairs, but even today, the only area I believe effort should be targeted is in building access, not in public transportation.

As brought up before, what is required? Honestly, I am not 100% sure, but will research the ADA today as my work has all the information on site.

Many on this forum spoke up against the route 15 wheelchair accommodations and received some flack from some who considered the remarks a bit immature and ignorant. To defend the “No wheelchairs on the route 15” statement, I will enter this argument by basing it on ethics: Utilitarianism and morality.

The mumbo jumbo - The purpose of morality is to guide people’s actions in such a way as to produce a better world. The idea of morality is of producing good consequences, not having good intentions; to bring the most benefit to the most humans. Utilitarianism is a demanding moral position that often asks us to put aside self-interest for the sake of the whole - always act in the way that will produce the greatest overall amount of good in the world.

The above mumbo jumbo directly relates to the Route 15 situation as the CURRENT actions of accommodating wheelchair passengers does not provide the overall amount of greatest good. Not only are the passengers on the trolley delayed, but roadways become even more congested; compounding more delays - resulting in the inconveniencing of around 100 people for just one. Are the whole benefited by accommodating one? Politically, it looks good to provide these services, but ethically, we all end up suffering.

I do understand that the handicap have rights, special needs, and should have some form of public transportation - a more efficient CCT service or another type of subsidized service specializing in providing transportation assistance to the handicap.

I hate being proved right on things like this. It should have been obvious to SEPTA that the wheelchair lifts were going to be difficult to use.

For all the "accomdating" that we're doing (high level platforms, buses with ramps, automated stop announcements, computerized visual station announcement boards), it would be cheaper to buy these people cars!

Yes, but all of those things have ancillary benefits to the immediate 'get the cripple on the train' routine. High level platforms can more easily accomodate and board large crowds (I would debate whether the same benefit could be had without requiring new platforms and simply ordering cars capable of level boarding at both high and low platforms). Low floor buses are immensely easier on older passengers, while automated announcements make life easier both on the operator and first time riders. It'd be greatly helpful if the Rt15 trolleys had the same automated announcement and interior LED display that the buses now have standard. LED display boards at stations are nothing short of an investment in the future. Hopefully some day SEPTA will progress beyond the flashing date and time and headway information and go to showing real-time ETAs on buses, trolleys and trains through the signs they've installed so far.

Simply bitching because the PCC IIs are poorly designed to accomodate wheelchair passengers solves little. Also in the case of low floors, automated announcements, and the dual platform level boarding cars some have proposed all such improvements are being or would be handled simply though the natural turnover in vehicles. SEPTA's D40LF low floor buses incorporate many improvements, both EPA and ADA mandated, over the Neoplan buses they replace. The same will be true of the Silverliner Vs; we're already replacing the Silverliner IIs and IIIs as their useful life is quickly coming to an end, so why not incorporate mandated changes in those vehicles? The actual cost of the systems next to the total cost of the vehicles is virtually peanuts.

One thing is certain, SEPTA (or for that matter, any other system in the country) is in no position to fight ADA compliance. The disabled lobby isn't as large nor does it have the resources the commercial and labor lobbies have, but they have the ultimate trump card, pity. They view the Americans with Disabilities Act as their Emancipation Proclamation, and no politician in his right mind is going to vote for a long-term waiver for a transit system. Instead of getting mad at our fellow citizens whose only crime is that they happen to have a lack of mobility, get mad at SEPTA for lowballing the Rt15, providing it with inferior vehicles, and not training the operators to properly load and unload wheelchair bound passengers in a timely manner. We have 18 trolleys perfect for historical loop routes, lets get 100 low floor LRVs for the 15, 23 and 56 and put the PCC IIs to uses they're much better suited for.

Being a non-disabled rider (thank god for my luck so far!), I know first hand what it feels like to be delayed for one wheelchair rider.

But let's keep in mind what SEPTA and the Route 15 are...PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. In any case, it would not be fair to exclude any certain group from public transit.

Septa Control Center Reports provided to me by a source details the Route 15 operations so far compared to those at Elmwood. Please note that the Callowhill Rail breakout includes both Route 15 and Route 10, and data could not be separated:

Mon, Sept 5
Elmwood Rail, 4 Delays, 1 missed trip
No detailed report for Callohill but 8 missed trips due to operator sick

Tues, Sept 6
Elmwood Rail 5 Delays, 3 Missed Trips
Callowhill Rail 9 Delays, 17 Missed Trips (1 trip missed engine trouble)

Wed Sept 7
Elmwood Rail 5 Delays, 11 Missed Trips
Callowhill Rail 4 Delays, 9 Missed Trips (1 trip missed pole trouble)

Personally, I am not against the handicapped. However, I really don't think that public transit systems are the safest place for them. As an operator for Toronto Transit for the last 25 years, I have seen this new technology enter our city and it is dangerous. A low floor bus getting T-boned would certainly have a lot of injuries, if not fatalities compared to a high floor vehicle. There is a lot of wasted space in them because you cannot put seats above the wheel wells. Like David Gunn said when he was running Toronto, an old woman would rather climb a few stairs and get a seat to ride down Dufferin Street then just walk on at the same level and have to stand. GM's have 44 seats compared to 28 on an Orion 6. Also, if I had an emergency in the subway, I would be making sure that every able bodied person was off of that train in a tunnel before I would be dicking around with a wheelchair and the rest of the passengers starting a stampede. It is the same here in Canada where the everything now is political and everyone is concentrating on their rights. The politicians are no-nothings about transit and the people that are jumping on the bandwagon about their rights should think about their safety first!

As I have directed my arguments towards the wheelchairs, I should reinforce that no matter what I complain about, I always will blame a problem empirically on SEPTAs inefficiency. As I stated previously, the solution of the problem is for SEPTA to initiate better use of the CCT service. Yes, accommodating the handicap on certain routes should be done. The Railroad Division and Subways are examples of service that should go out of the way and spend recourses to improve access.

Please remember the financial aspect of the Route 15 project. Because of budget constraints, (Uhhgg, it sounds like I’m defending them) SEPTA was forced to take short cuts; going out and getting new equipment was out of the question. The whole idea of rehabbing the PCC’s was to save money. Remember, the PCC II’s seats are from the old VOLVO busses. When you have to half a$$ something as seats, acquiring new equipment is WAY over on the other side of the spectrum, I’m talking gamma rays. .

The route 15 is a very busy route that moves many people on a busy roadway. As scheduled, the 15 barely can accomplish this task. ONE wheelchair literally stops the whole line delaying hundreds.

The whole idea of my argument is not to fight the ADA, but to find a solution that is economically viable. Spending another 100 million on equipment is currently not the way. SEPTA should keep the lifts on the trolleys for those hopefully, rare occasions, but I repeat, they should be more aggressive in helping move the handicap along this line using the CCT service.

Anyone hear anything about a collision yesterday between a trolley and a automobile at 4th-Girard? I heard it wasn't too serious but the last thing I want to hear is that these cars are getting banged up already. I was already on one that was rusting around the windows.

They view the Americans with Disabilities Act as their Emancipation Proclamation, and no politician in his right mind is going to vote for a long-term waiver for a transit system.

You would be surprised. Over the yeard the ADA has come to be seen not as something to build equality, but something to give special privillages to a certain few (like affirmitive action or Title IX). There is growing momentum to overhaul the ADA so that the needs of the disabled don't take precident over the needs of the vast majority.

This being said the ADA has been very useful in helping the abled when they are encumbered by luggage or strollers, but the ADA really needs to be limited to where you get the most bang for your buck (ie heavy rail transit).

The route 15 is a very busy route that moves many people on a busy roadway. As scheduled, the 15 barely can accomplish this task. ONE wheelchair literally stops the whole line delaying hundreds.

I think that the best thing they can do for the Rt 15 is enable traffic light premption. I saw that the vehicles have the little IR lamp thing for it, but I don't think any of the lights on Girard have been equipped. You could probably save 15-20 minutes if the damn trolleys didn't get stopped at every light.

I saw that the vehicles have the little IR lamp thing for it, but I don't think any of the lights on Girard have been equipped

The lights are equipped between Montgomery and 13th Street.

I heard from 1234 today that school trippers will be run by bus.

Any other regular riders here hearing complaints from regulars about service hiccups? I'm curious to know if SEPTA is receiving any feedback from the general public and if that is going to have any infulence over operations. Not to be a broken record, but the wheelchairs are an issue.

I used RT 15 from Broad & Girard to the Zoo today. Some observations:

1) The timestable claims an arrival time at Broad and Girard traveling westbound at 12:09 PM. The trolley arrived at 12:13pm. The next time point on the schedule is 40th and Girard at 12:25 PM. I left the trolley at the Zoo station (34th and Girard) at 12:27 PM. Obviously it was behind schedule.

2) In the eastbound direction at Broad & Girard, a bus followed almost immediately by a trolley appeared around 12:07 PM. This arrival time was nowhere near the posted schedule for this timepoint.

3) While many prople have tried to sell the re-institution of trolley service based on the "charm" of PCC's, there is little left inside the vehicle that represents nostalgia. The exteriors have a nice paint job, but the HVAC hump on the roof compromises the visual integrity of the vehicle exteriors as well.

4) Although some segments of Girard Avenue contain reserved median, other segments that could contain reserved median do not. The inability or unwillingness of SEPTA and/or the City to provide funding and other resources to maximize reserved right of way and placement of priority signalization means that the RT 15 has been recreated as a rail route with most of it's past problems.

In short, Route 15 is still a streetcar line, not LRT. You can try to spin it (the truth) more than a 52x CD ROM on your PC, but it is what it is. IMHO, basic surface streetcar lines with little to no LRT features do not represent a transportation enhancement worth the additional cost when used in a general transport function.

Again, another project scaled to a budget, rather than scaling the budget to build an appropriate project. If RT 15 could not justify additional funding to implement LRT infrastructure/operation to the greatest degree possible, than it ought not to have been reconverted to rail at all.

Serious consideration should also have been given to rerouting the northeast end from Richmond Street to Aramingo Avenue above the Cumberland Street loop. This way it could have directly connected Fishtown and central Port Richmond with the retail zone between Westmoreland Street and Castor Avenue. It might also have continued on Castor to Erie Avenue, turning right while using a segment of former RT 56 trackage to access the Erie-Torresdale MFSE station. Service could terminate at the turning loop east of the station. Aramingo north of Westmoreland and Castor could support a reserved median due to the street width in these locations.

In short, Route 15 is still a streetcar line, not LRT

There's a difference? POP does not LRT make; commuter rail and buses use POP too. Plenty of "LRT lines" that have a lot of street-running.

Bill R. wrote:I used RT 15 from Broad & Girard to the Zoo today. Some observations:

3) While many prople have tried to sell the re-institution of trolley service based on the "charm" of PCC's, there is little left inside the vehicle that represents nostalgia.

They kept the ceiling lights.

http://www.transitspot.com/gallery/Bobs ... 5_09_04_22

Bob

They also seem to have retained the pull cord for the "next stop" signal. The "transit" seats are harsh-looking indeed, though...