Rochester's Subway tunnel to be filled in

Obviously someone was taking notice in City Hall.

Unfortunately, it appears that that "someone" are the city lawyers.

How did this group even get access in the first place?
without city cooperation?
isnt the west end near Nick Tahous sealed up?
I know the subway is very easy to "break into"..especially on the east end, near the dinosaur BBQ (LV station)
and at the War Memorial.
but I always thought it was better sealed on the west end..

Scot

Otto says:

"The City realized that they still own the Subway tunnel, and do not want unauthorized persons in the tunnel. i.e., any tours conducted without their permission will be considered trespassing"

Right! - It's OK for vagrants, winos and bums to live there for years and they don't boot them out but when there's an organized tour, suddenly they realize it's unauthorized trespassing!

It's not sealed at Nick's. The news story I watched showed a large group of people streaming into the tunnel right behind Nick's. They had to brush away the trees and weeds and some were wearing masks, the white ones you wear when installing insulation.

Charles

There is nothing "sealed" about the Subway. You can gain access from any number of locations. The only area that they attempted to close off was the Oak Street portal:

http://railroad.net/articles/railfannin ... portal.jpg

-otto-

To learn more
For more on the Subway-Erie Canal Revitalization group, visit

www.chillthefill.org.
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Group trying to save subway halts its tours


Matthew Daneman
Staff writer


(June 8, 2005) — The community group trying to halt plans to fill in the old Rochester subway tunnel has put a stop to its tours of the passageway.

An estimated 300 area residents, led by the Subway-Erie Canal Revitalization group, walked Sunday through the dark and dirty cavernous passageway that runs beneath Broad Street downtown. The tour, put together by the revitalization group known as SECR, was to drum up public support for keeping the tunnel open for potential future use. The city plans to spend $21 million to pack it shut with dirt.

The group this week cancelled plans to have a second such tour this weekend after being contacted by City Hall about safety concerns.

See the full story in www.rochesterdandc.com

I was one of those they streamed in but without the the white masks at first. They gave out the mask because of the large number of people walking. They figured there was going to be a lot dusted kicked up. I ended up putting mine in about half way through near the D&C. This is when you started tasting dirt.

Chris

I think it's great that one tour was conducted and so many people came out... Visiting the Subway tunnel in its present state can be kind of disappointing- especially if you dont know what you're looking at. I was in there years ago with a group of friends, and we were armed with maps, track diagrams, etc... and we still had a hard time picking out what we were looking at.

-otto-

Aji-tater wrote: Right! - It's OK for vagrants, winos and bums to live there for years and they don't boot them out but when there's an organized tour, suddenly they realize it's unauthorized trespassing!

That's because some person or group has an agenda, and an open subway tunnel might interfere with that. Keep in mind that the city gov't wants to promote urban (as opposed suburban) living. Obviously, light rail would allow suburban commuters to travel downtown with ease, thereby negating that advantage to city living.

I've been told that light rail or a revitalized subway seems rather unlikely, but apparently it's still enough of a threat that someone wants to make absolutely sure that doesn't happen.

Matt Langworthy wrote:[ Keep in mind that the city gov't wants to promote urban (as opposed suburban) living. Obviously, light rail would allow suburban commuters to travel downtown with ease, thereby negating that advantage to city living.

but if you make it easier for suburbanites to visit, or work, downtown,
via light rail, that cant only improve downtown, and make things better for the people who *do* live there..
and it might increase the odds of people wanting to live downtown, if conditions improve and better transportation is available..

I moved to Rochester 10 years ago..im not a native.
I live on Park ave for 8 years and now I live in Greece..
im moving BACK to Park ave after I get married, then am going to look for a house in the suburbs!
so to me, "Rochester" is basically all of Monroe county..
Greece, to me, is just as much "Rochester" as is Webster, Fairport, or downtown..
I understand the City government is seperate from the county..
but i think we have to accept that the city and the suburbs are basically one unit..not seperate.
If we want to improve downtown (which I do..I LIKE downtown!)
we have to make it easier for people to live there, and get there..

IMO, light rail could only improve downtown..

Matt, I dont quite understand what you mean by light rail hurting the prospects for downtown living?
could you elaborate?

The suburbanites are going to live in suburbia anyway..
without light rail, they will NEVER go downtown..that hurts downtown..
if transportation is easier, they might visit downtown more..even if they still wont consider living there...and some MIGHT consider living there it there were better reasons to do so..
(such as an improved downtown)

the key, to me, is making transportation between suburbia and urbia easier...that can only improve both..

Scot

Scot, I definitely agree- I live in suburban Irondequoit by choice. The problerm is the perception by city leaders who are pushing for "downtown" living. IMHO, they are doing this because light rail would allow folks like us to live in the 'burbs and work downtown. Apparently, whoever (???) is behind this does not realize the benefit to the city tax rolls by growing the amount of office space downtown. No city or suburb should be encouraged to make themselves an area where someone has to live in order to work. And how many more expensive loft apartments does this area need?

Filling in the tunnel is extremely myopic. Even if there is no current need for the tunnel, it would be quite expensive to remove the dirt for future use.

How is the light rail which runs from Univ of Buffalo to downtown Buffalo doing? It seems to be one line that makes sense transporting lots of students without cars. Point to point. College to downtown.

Rochester has no such cluster of potential riders, and nothing downtown when they get there.

I think that the city of Rochester just wants to eliminate a potential hazzard. Nothing more sinister.

Downtown Rochester was much busier in the 1950s when the subway was pulled out.

I think that Midtown Plaza was the big mistake, it internalized downtown and killed street life. I remember downtown in the 1950s and it was really alive, especially on Main St. from the Eastman School to the corner of State and Exchange, and Clinton Ave south to Goodman.

Perhaps, the decline could not be stopped.

One indicator of life downtown is Starbucks. I don't like the coffee, but they know where to locate stores. Buffalo and Syracuse each have 2 downtown. The closest Starbucks to downtown Rochester is on Monroe Ave, outside the loop.

Downtown Rochester will never be the "destination" it once was. Office jobs have migrated to the suburbs. Midtown is a ghost of its former self. City population is declining.

Light rail will NEVER work in Rochester unless the area experiences a substantial population growth along a linear corridor (i.e. between Canandaigua and downtown) with a corresponding growth in jobs concentrated in the city core. If this were to happen then your light rail would likely be along the old NYC Auburn Branch to service the southeastern suburbs.

The growth to the west of the city ain't quite there - therefore no need for the tunnel west of Exchange Street.

Right now the city is getting a deal. Instead of the City paying out over a million/year to maintain the tunnel, the feds are kicking in 80% (with a 10/10 match by the state and city) to fill it in and relieve the city the expensive chore of maintaining it.

I would also guess the R&S would need to file for an abandonment of the line from the old B&O main to the D&C building? The railroad can throw a wrench in the works to preserve their ROW if they really wanted to.

Les, if the subway is owned by the city and the line into the old D&C is just considered an industrial siding I believe no abandonment filing would be needed. As far as I know R&S does not actually own the trackage in the subway.

Correct. No railroad actually owns the subway trackage outright. According to Mike Bednar's Lehigh Valley: Wyoming & Buffalo Divisions, the remainder of the subway (after it closed in 1956) was operated by an "equity" that included B&O, Erie, LV and NYC. While the crews came from all of the RRs, engines and equipment were NYC, later PC. I don't know if Conrail continued the equity or if they just gave up and left it to B&O.

Since Buffalo's light rail involves students- perhaps a look at the old Falls Road roadbed is justified. Considering that my alma mater SUNY Brockport is growing, it might make sense to have a shuttle service between their original campus and their mini-campus downtown. Les, I might be wrong, but westward population growth seems to be a definite possibility. Eastern suburbs like Webster are starting to "max out" their green space and the local news media has reported some growth in the western suburbs- which has already justified the western expansion of Rt. 531. In light of future growth potential, it would be wise to railbank the subway tracks rather than fill the enitre thing in. Surely there's a way to get federal monies for tunnel presevation, right?