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R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637521  by lensovet
 
GirlOnTheTrain wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 11:07 am They won't buy anymore beyond those two sets and those two sets will end up on the Rockaway Shuttle. Nobody got time for the open gangway trains and discharging if you gotta run around on the express and no clearance to investigate in a tunnel.
In case anyone else was confused by this, the original order specified just 2 open gangway trains, one hard shell and one soft shell for the transition sections.

There is an option to get more A (standard) or T (open gangway) cars that the MTA has yet to exercise. Given the situation around these, it sounds like that option will be exercised for the A variants.

Or, if the people in charge care more about flashy slogans and politicking than practicality, they'll choose the Ts anyway, and we'll be saddled with the operational downsides of them for the next 3-5 decades.

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637533  by Head-end View
 
Okay now; I'm having difficulty understanding all these vague and cryptic statements about the problem with these cars. Can someone please explain it in understandable English? :(

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637548  by GirlOnTheTrain
 
Vague and cryptic?

It's impossible for train operators to safely investigate an emergency brake application in tight clearance areas. This requires checking between and under cars when a train is tripped and the train operator doesn't know why.

It's also completely ridiculous to expect a train to discharge of all passengers when something necessitates running on the express tracks in certain areas with long express runs. It takes time, it inconveniences passengers, and quite frankly increases the risk of assault having to kick everyone off a train in the middle of Manhattan.

Chances are slim to none that any option for more open gangway variants will be exercised considering the limitations of the trains. Let them serve out their lives outside on the Rockaway Shuttle.

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637549  by GirlOnTheTrain
 
Allan wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 7:53 am Another question would be why did they move it to the right side in the first place?
In the R142/142A/188 it is in the middle of the console. Even in the retrofitted R46s it is in the middle of the console.
The R188s do not have the handle in the middle of the controller, even the 142A retrofit 188s have an entirely new console and the handle is on the right, much like the 160s.

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637588  by Head-end View
 
GirlOnTheTrain wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 9:51 am Vague and cryptic?

It's impossible for train operators to safely investigate an emergency brake application in tight clearance areas. This requires checking between and under cars when a train is tripped and the train operator doesn't know why.

It's also completely ridiculous to expect a train to discharge of all passengers when something necessitates running on the express tracks in certain areas with long express runs. It takes time, it inconveniences passengers, and quite frankly increases the risk of assault having to kick everyone off a train in the middle of Manhattan.

Chances are slim to none that any option for more open gangway variants will be exercised considering the limitations of the trains. Let them serve out their lives outside on the Rockaway Shuttle.
Sorry to sound ignorant but I'm still not understanding this. What does the open gangway have to do with not being able to inspect the undercarriage of the train? Are you saying the crew has to be able to look down between the cars from floor level? If so then yeah; that would be impossible to do. Please clarify. Thanks!

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637594  by lensovet
 
I'll be honest, this seems like a pretty obvious issue. How was this not recognized as a problem earlier? Did we need someone to pull the emergency brakes on 5 cars and then cause an accident for people to think about it?

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637597  by Head-end View
 
GirlOnTheTrain wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 9:10 pm How do you expect to climb down between cars with an open gangway? You can do this with traditional equipment.
Okay now I get what you're saying. I didn't realize the crew would have to climb down to track level between the cars. Thanks!

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637598  by Head-end View
 
lensovet wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 9:14 pm I'll be honest, this seems like a pretty obvious issue. How was this not recognized as a problem earlier? Did we need someone to pull the emergency brakes on 5 cars and then cause an accident for people to think about it?
Good question...........Maybe it was recognized by operating people who may have been overruled by politicians who wanted to try the open-gangway idea for better passenger perceived safety and convenience.

So MTA may have agreed to buy a small number of such test trains to satisfy the higher-ups. That's just a guess.

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637599  by lensovet
 
Frankly I've never understood the rage about them. If the concern about a smelly person being in the same car as you, isn't it better to have isolated cars so that the stink stays in that car and you can just switch over at the next station? How is spreading that stink over the entire train an improvement?

Operationally, it also seems like a nightmare in case you need longer or shorter trains, though admittedly I have no idea how frequently consists are changed in length.

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637606  by RandallW
 
There seems to be a presumption that stations are so quiet and dwell times are so long that a number of passengers can find walk the train to find the ideal single car or change cars at will in thinking that moving between cars while a train is in motion isn't desirable.

The attraction of the open gangway is that you could board the car wherever (presumably from a spot close to where you entered the station) and then get to an uncrowded part of the train or the ideal part of the train to exit from while it is in motion. Having used S Bahn trains in Stuttgart with and without the open gangways, I can say I have taken advantage of the ability to board wherever (the door closest to a shelter on an uncovered platform in the rain) and the exit from a door closest to the exit at my destination (also outdoors with an uncovered platform and in the rain).

It seems to me that if the protocols for dealing with a passenger pulling the emergency brake require crew to exit the train, there are worse problems with the NYMTA car designs than open gangways.

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637644  by lensovet
 
they have a) societies that don't pull stunts like this b) tunnel clearances that are wider c) sufficient excess capacity that such inspections are not as disruptive are my three uneducated guesses.

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637668  by GirlOnTheTrain
 
lensovet wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 9:14 pm I'll be honest, this seems like a pretty obvious issue. How was this not recognized as a problem earlier? Did we need someone to pull the emergency brakes on 5 cars and then cause an accident for people to think about it?
People who actually operated the trains have been screaming that these trains were a piss poor fit since they decided to order them, but they didn't take the opinion of people who operate trains into consideration when ordering them.

Also why they're two prototype sets like the R110A/B trains.

Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Cars

 #1637669  by GirlOnTheTrain
 
RandallW wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 6:15 am It seems to me that if the protocols for dealing with a passenger pulling the emergency brake require crew to exit the train, there are worse problems with the NYMTA car designs than open gangways.
If you know the problem is a pulled cord, then no, you don't need to do a full investigation. Full investigation is reserved for when the train operator doesn't know the cause of the emergency brake activation - like some debris getting snagged on the tripping device or the good ol' emergency brake activation with no cause found.
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