Toys or Us has no model train section anymore

One thing I find interesting with eBay is yes, you will eventually find what you might be searching for (Walthers horizon cars, or Jouef Amtrak turboliner cars for example) but I think it does the hobby some damage.

Imagine if your a newbie to the hobby, don't have a LHS in your neighborhood and use eBay as a price guide because it's so well known. The prices will chase you right out of the hobby.

My son wanted a Proto 2000 NYC E7A (no sound, DCC ready) and was about to "buy it now" on eBay for $149 because he wanted it "right now". Luckily, I stopped him and while we out driving and running errands one day, stopped to a hobby store (50 miles from my house, by the way) and found the exact same model on sale for $79.

I remember as a teenager going to Toys R Us, Kabee, Playworld, or Woolworth's and dreaming I had $50 for a Bachmann Metroliner train set and how it would look running on my kitchen floor. I couldn't wait till I got my allowance on Saturday, to ride out on the D train to Trainworld (when it used to be on Ave.M in Brooklyn) and grab some $8.99 AHM passenger cars to add to my fleet.

Now in the age of $50-60 passenger cars, and $250-300 locomotives, I do wonder how the hobby will survive. Thank god for train shows & swap meets.

I do commend Walthers & Atlas for expanding their entry level engines and freight cars for the discretionary buyer who can't afford all the bell & whistles.

I had recently seen the junk Life Like trains in Toys R Us, but then again, why would anyone buy trains there?

Except for the large and Lionel kind, I can't see model trains as really being a play thing. They are to delicate and cannot handle careless play. by the time kids are old enough to be responsible with a model train, they're old enough that they probably aren't making many stops in Toys R Us anymore.

there is simply no winning with a train set meant for a toy shop. If you make them in a finer quality they will be to easily broken and so passed up (especially considering the price will probably be high). On the flip side, a cheap train might not be so easy to break (or at least, not much of a risk), but it runs so poorly that overall it doesn't last long entertainment wise.

While I'm sure today's electronics do play a part in the downfall of trains, I would think that in the case of Toys R Us, and many other toy stores, it doesn't make sense to sell them.

like i said, the only exception is the large types like Lionel. They can take a child's abuse, are easy to handle, simple to put together, and easy to take apart. However, as was pointed out, Toys R Us doesn't want Lionel's business, so that ends that.

B44NYC wrote:One thing I find interesting with eBay is yes, you will eventually find what you might be searching for (Walthers horizon cars, or Jouef Amtrak turboliner cars for example) but I think it does the hobby some damage.

Imagine if your a newbie to the hobby, don't have a LHS in your neighborhood and use eBay as a price guide because it's so well known. The prices will chase you right out of the hobby.

My son wanted a Proto 2000 NYC E7A (no sound, DCC ready) and was about to "buy it now" on eBay for $149 because he wanted it "right now". Luckily, I stopped him and while we out driving and running errands one day, stopped to a hobby store (50 miles from my house, by the way) and found the exact same model on sale for $79.

I think it really goes both ways on that one. I've seen plenty of things priced WELL above what they are worth. However, its often the result of some over zealous nutcases (trust me, i know a few who would make you cry). There are plenty of cheap units but high quality on Ebay worth picking up.

If you're looking for UP SD40-2s, or Amtrak Genesis diesels or F-units, you're probably going to find it cheaper on Ebay. There is a crap ton of them. Sure, some will be priced high, but you'll find at least a few under MSRP at a reasonable price and in good shape. Speaking of E8s, i've seen P2k E8s go for $50 more than once.

Its when you are looking into particular things that you watch the prices skyrocket. I've seen people bid over $120 for one of those Metroliner powered cars all by itself, but you can't find Metroliners easily these days. However, the few times I have found them in hobby shops, they are typically in beat up boxes and the owner couldn't sell it to you fast enough.

Same with the MBTA cab car i mentioned earlier. It sat on the hobby shop shelf for years, the price dropping on it as time passed. If i offered it on Ebay now, i could probably get all my money back and then quite a bit more.

The only problem with this last category is that if the model is something local or popular, good luck finding it. If it was popular by you, its gone, and chances are the only ones left on shelves anywhere are across the country some place. unfortunately, this necessitates things like Ebay.

I remember as a teenager going to Toys R Us, Kabee, Playworld, or Woolworth's and dreaming I had $50 for a Bachmann Metroliner train set and how it would look running on my kitchen floor. I couldn't wait till I got my allowance on Saturday, to ride out on the D train to Trainworld (when it used to be on Ave.M in Brooklyn) and grab some $8.99 AHM passenger cars to add to my fleet.

Now in the age of $50-60 passenger cars, and $250-300 locomotives, I do wonder how the hobby will survive. Thank god for train shows & swap meets.

I do commend Walthers & Atlas for expanding their entry level engines and freight cars for the discretionary buyer who can't afford all the bell & whistles.

Yes, thank god for train shows and swap meets!

They are the only places a guy on a budget can find things at a reasonable price. I used to go to train shows and haul back a ton of stuff, but haven't been out to one in a while.

The prices these days are really making me cry. I only just started the hobby a little while ago, 7 years or so, but everything just gets priced higher and higher.

I just saw the prices for Concor's MP54s. I knew it wasn't going to be cheap, but $230 for a powered unit, and $130 for a dummy? There is no DCCor Sound unit in it that i know of, where did the price increase come from? the regular unpowered non-pantograph/headlighted MP54 car by them is half the price! Who is going to be building any sort of MU train for that kind of money? It would cost $680 for just one 4 car train. And i used to think IHP charged a lot for an MU train! (to be fair, they've reduced price on a lot of things)

I know Otto will come in and tell me "when you're older and you have a better job, that won't be so bad", but i gotta be honest, my parents freaked out when they had to spend that kind of money on things, and i don't think most people i know would say that is a reasonable price to pay for a hobby.

green_elite_cab wrote: While I'm sure today's electronics do play a part in the downfall of trains, I would think that in the case of Toys R Us, and many other toy stores, it doesn't make sense to sell them.

Like i said, the only exception is the large types like Lionel. They can take a child's abuse, are easy to handle, simple to put together, and easy to take apart. However, as was pointed out, Toys R Us doesn't want Lionel's business, so that ends that.

The real point to be derived from all this discussion is simply that the general public has virtually no interest in model trains these days, whatever the venue. Full service hobbyshop owners have come to realize this and buyers for various toy stores have too and simply don't order trains (other than basically wooden, or low quality,Thomas stuff) any more.

The current level of public interest in model/toy trains has been dramatically demonstrated to me in trips the last few years to Manhattan at Christmas time with my grandkids. For a couple of years now Lionel has rented a storefront just off Rockerfeller Center for this season. The Lego company has one too, although I think that their location is occupied year-round. Anyway, I've found that you can bearly squeeze through the doors of the Lego store at Christmastime because of the crowds. However, at the Lionel store around the corner I've found it rare to see more than one customer in there at a time!

CNJ999

CNJ999 wrote:The real point to be derived from all this discussion is simply that the general public has virtually no interest in model trains these days, whatever the venue. Full service hobbyshop owners have come to realize this and buyers for various toy stores have too and simply don't order trains (other than basically wooden, or low quality,Thomas stuff) any more.

The current level of public interest in model/toy trains has been dramatically demonstrated to me in trips the last few years to Manhattan at Christmas time with my grandkids. For a couple of years now Lionel has rented a storefront just off Rockerfeller Center for this season. The Lego company has one too, although I think that their location is occupied year-round. Anyway, I've found that you can bearly squeeze through the doors of the Lego store at Christmastime because of the crowds. However, at the Lionel store around the corner I've found it rare to see more than one customer in there at a time!

CNJ999

Well, hold on a minute. The Lego store is RIGHT THERE at Rockefeller center, right across the ice skating rink from the big tree. You can't miss it if you stand in line for the ice skating. That Lionel store by comparison was far away from the action, and incredibly sparse. There wasn't even that many people outside the store on the block. I don't remember it being exactly close to the action where tons of people (relative the normal city crowd) would be passing it.

Also, lets look at the public interest.

How much money do you think is spent by the Lego people advertising their blocks? They are everywhere. I last built a lego model years ago, and i see lego stuff all the time. they sponsor things like all sorts of lego competitions (be it robots, architecture, whatever), they have advertisements in movie theaters, commercials between any kid's TV shows, and major presences in stores where they have big signs that point to the Legos. You'll notice that video games and electronics haven't put much of a dent into Lego block industry.

I don't see Lionel advertising to anyone other than people who've already bought their products. In fact, I don't even think that I even see the Lionel logo outside of a hobby shop unless its the holidays, and even then, its a small bunch of cheap sets that some storefront thought they could sell.

Why would anyone outside of the hobby even know what Lionel is? Who is introducing the "next generation" to the hobby? I think Lionel tried with the Polar Express movie, but even then It was only a little push. Unless you have a "grandpa who plays with trains", there is zero exposure.

Again, i don't think electronics have nearly as much to do with it as the fact that trains have lost popularity. I think that because no one has been selling trains to young kids, no one is buying them.

This hobby still has a huge following. A trip to Springfield MA in January will prove any doubters wrong.

I've seen the prices on Concor's MP54's....Sticker shock isn't the word I'd use....

Before I seen the prices, I was planning on a 6-8 car fleet. Now if I decide to get them, I'll be glad to get 2.

Funny, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who wants to get back into the hobby and he brought up a good point. How does one get introduced into the hobby today especially with the decline of hobby stores?

It used to be word of mouth, a Christmas display in a department store, or a TV commercial for the newest Lionel train. I still remember the Mattel Hot Wheels Turbo Train commercials from the 70's!!

I believe someone hit on this topic earlier. If more mom & pop, brick & mortar hobby stores would take the time and have their inventory uploaded to the web and available online, personally I think the hobby would recover some. Just think of what could be sitting in the back of someone store. Just by accident, searching on Bing, I found a 4 car NYC R21 subway set for $75.... in a Louisiana Ace Hardware store!

In this day and age of Twitter and where no one verbally speaks anymore, the web could be the savior of the hobby.

Green_elite_cab, I believe that last year, or maybe ever the past couple of years, the Manhattan Lionel store was situated on 50th between 5 Ave. and the Avenue of the Americas. That is literally right around the corner from the tree, maybe a 60 second walk. That's also midway between the tree and Radio City, the area's other hot spot during the holidays. That's a very good location if you ask me!

While I'm sure that Lego advertises widely (I don't watch children's shows so I can't say I've ever recall seeing one of their ads), Lionel did do an ad campaign blitz about a decade ago, appealing first to adult males with kids and the next year mothers and daughters. These were prime-time ads, not the kiddie TV hour. The ads were nostalgia-based, the ad dept. appreciating that their potential purchasing customer base would be those who remembered toy trains from their own youth...not the kids of today. Even so, the ads flopped because the interest was no longer there amongst the public.

Incidentally, as to why would anyone outside the hobby even know what Lionel is, I would point out the fact that from prior to WWII until the mid 1970's "Lionel" was the second most widely recognized non-food product name in America. I doubt even Lego can make that claim today! I'd bet that a lot of Lionel name recognition has carried over in adults right down to today.

CNJ999

CNJ999 wrote:The real point to be derived from all this discussion is simply that the general public has virtually no interest in model trains these days, whatever the venue. Full service hobbyshop owners have come to realize this and buyers for various toy stores have too and simply don't order trains (other than basically wooden, or low quality,Thomas stuff) any more.

The current level of public interest in model/toy trains has been dramatically demonstrated to me in trips the last few years to Manhattan at Christmas time with my grandkids. For a couple of years now Lionel has rented a storefront just off Rockerfeller Center for this season. The Lego company has one too, although I think that their location is occupied year-round. Anyway, I've found that you can bearly squeeze through the doors of the Lego store at Christmastime because of the crowds. However, at the Lionel store around the corner I've found it rare to see more than one customer in there at a time!

CNJ999

This makes no sense. Why are there new model railroad manufacturing companies started almost every month? Why do the major manufacturers pour R&D dollars into making new models and tooling? For a hobby that is vanishing? That doesn't make any business sense at all.

-otto-

Otto - honestly, that approach makes perfect sense. The R&D is being done so that new models can be produced in very small qualities and offered to hobbyists every few months. This approach greatly increases the potential for products to be sold out quickly and getting a return on the investment, a quick small profit and then moving ahead. This works well when dealing with a shrinking market. Once folks have bought up the run of perhaps several hundred units that market is essentially exhausted and if the manufacturer doesn't quickly move on, he's doomed. On the other hand, Athearn, MDC, et al. could maintain a same but fairly limited product line for years because the hobby was of much wider interest in the past and could generate the same level of profit without need for rapid model turnover.

As to new manufacturers coming on line every day, with perhaps the exception of Exact Rail, none I see seem of any size, or real consequence. Even among the few suppose "big names" today, like say Broadway Limited, impress me as probably quite small and really are operating hand to mouth. Certainly none of the laser structure companies today are more than cottage industries, some even fly-by-night, in nature by their actions. If you want a real barometer for the industry look at just how many of the manufacturers have vanished, or consolidated, in recent years.

Needless to say, there are other factors as well that need to be considered, like the dramatic shift one has seen in the very nature of the hobby/hobbyist from actual modelling to model buying over the past 15 years. But the original point of this thread was the dwindling availability of model trains to the public, not a discussion of the manufacturers' best potential sales concepts.

CNJ999