Railroad Fare Collection

Silverliner II wrote:

Every one of them uses POP (proof of payment) fare verification.

True for the nine systems in question, and that is how they have been since startup, unlike the older systems like SEPTA and others in the Northeast.

Caltrain is a legacy system that switched to POP, and I presume commuter trains in Montréal and Toronto operated with traditional ticketing at some point, though I don't know whether it was after AMT and GO respectively took over.

Not one of them forces all riders to use the tag-off system like SEPTA is proposing.

That is true too. Even on GO, you only have to tag out on PRESTO cards with specific types of fares.

Correct. If you pay for a monthly pass, you designate a regular trip on your PRESTO, and you only tag on and off if you are going on a different line or beyond your regular destination. If there's a POP inspection, you must either have a paper fare receipt (from the TVM), a PRESTO card valid at the location where the inspection is, or a PRESTO card that's been tagged on at the boarding station.

Wasn't SEPTA planning some kind of alternative for people using Trailpasses and Transpasses with the crew scanning them on board? Especially since all the Trailpasses have "Anywhere" privileges on weekends?

I have not heard anything about something like that.

Where is the cost savings when the majority of riders now use trail/transpasses, and the new system will still accept cash? What's to keep the same crowd of 100 Villanova kids stampeding a Friday night Villanova-Bryn Mawr tain, all paying in cash, and more than half walking off without paying because the conductor couldn't get to them?

On the transit side, there's no labor savings at subway stations, meaning there's no cost savings there either.

Matt Mitchell:
You participated at the Economy League discussion, and perhaps have seen more documentation on this than we have. What's the cost/benefit ratio of this project? At ~$150 million, where is the payback to taxpayers?

Silverliner II wrote: And most of us here would agree that SEPTA could use ticket machines at every station as well (if NJT, the LIRR, and Metro-North can do it, well what's SEPTA's excuse again?)

SEPTA has machines at none of their stations, but do NJT, the LIRR, and Metro-North have them at ALL of their stations?
I haven't read it, but http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 69&t=16749 'Next Round of TVM Installations' by its title implies to me that NJT doesn't have machines at every station

Patrick Boylan wrote:

Silverliner II wrote: And most of us here would agree that SEPTA could use ticket machines at every station as well (if NJT, the LIRR, and Metro-North can do it, well what's SEPTA's excuse again?)

SEPTA has machines at none of their stations, but do NJT, the LIRR, and Metro-North have them at ALL of their stations?
I haven't read it, but http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 69&t=16749 'Next Round of TVM Installations' by its title implies to me that NJT doesn't have machines at every station

Yet there is now only a couple, count them on one hand, in NJT-land that currently do not have a machine ...

Patrick Boylan wrote:

Silverliner II wrote: And most of us here would agree that SEPTA could use ticket machines at every station as well (if NJT, the LIRR, and Metro-North can do it, well what's SEPTA's excuse again?)

SEPTA has machines at none of their stations, but do NJT, the LIRR, and Metro-North have them at ALL of their stations?
I haven't read it, but http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 69&t=16749 'Next Round of TVM Installations' by its title implies to me that NJT doesn't have machines at every station

NJT has them at a fair number of stations. However, the difference between NJT and SEPTA is that NJT does not impose the ($5.00) on-board surcharge if you get on at a station that does not have a TMV. SEPTA, being the masters of logic that they are, see no problem in hitting us with a surcharge for buying tickets on-board, even though there may not be another option.

In all honesty I like the TMV system that NJT has. Is it perfect? Probably not. But it makes sense and it makes getting tickets easier. It would be an easy model for SEPTA to follow if they went the TMV route.

Why not do what the airlines do with boarding passes? You can buy on your phone, get the barcode and get it scanned by someone with a handheld, or buy at home, print it out and take with you on the train. Its odd that since the ticket machines went away, there's been no stop-gap measure with on-line ticket sales...unless of course the subversive goal was to increase revenue.

jfrey40535 wrote:Why not do what the airlines do with boarding passes?

Because SEPTA is fixated on the turnstiles: they ensure that every Center City rider pays at least some fare. Never mind that closing that weakness in the present system leaves the back door (on-branch and through-tunnel trips) wide open.

Patrick Boylan wrote:SEPTA has machines at none of their stations, but do NJT, the LIRR, and Metro-North have them at ALL of their stations?
I haven't read it, but http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 69&t=16749 'Next Round of TVM Installations' by its title implies to me that NJT doesn't have machines at every station

So far, every station on Metro-North I have been through has had at least TWO TVM's somewhere on the premises. I can name two that don't, but those same two don't even have platforms, just signs, are flag stops only served by two trains a day each way on weekends only and serve hikers on the Appalachian Trail and others in the area, and that would Appalachian Trail on the Harlem Line and Breakneck Ridge on the Hudson Line.

Silverliner II wrote:And most of us here would agree that SEPTA could use ticket machines at every station as well (if NJT, the LIRR, and Metro-North can do it, well what's SEPTA's excuse again?)

While it's not commuter rail, IIRC Baltimore's light rail system uses POP and has TVMs at all stations. And some of those are in areas that aren't in quite the same league as Devon or Elkins Park.

jfrey40535 wrote: ... [a] crowd of 100 Villanova kids stampeding a Friday night Villanova-Bryn Mawr train, all paying in cash, and more than half walking off without paying because the conductor couldn't get to them?

Don't worry, SEPTA makes up the lost revenue by double-charging those students when they ride the P&W.

There've been a few posts about the onboard surcharge that supposedly isn't a surcharge, and how it might be a backdoor revenue enhancer instead of a legitimate way to encourage folks to buy tickets in advance.
I believe, and have posted a few times, that it's a revenue reducer, since I think people who might otherwise take discretionary trips will after a while tend to drive instead.
At least that's my experience. I work in center city Philly and live in Burlington NJ. My sailboat's at the foot of Grant Ave, about 3 blocks from the Torresdale train station. I usually get a ride from one of my partners who lives in Center City, otherwise I either bicycle from work to the boat, and have my wife drive to pick me up after sailing. Otherwise I go all the way home and drive back to the boat.

Just in case there are ever Riveline problems, or I miss the last Riveline train, I have 1 off peak ticket to Bristol deteriorating in my wallet, but after living in 6 years in Burlington, and having the sailboat the last 8 months at Torresdale, have yet to use the ticket.

When I'm home, as I am today, I usually take my bicycle on the Riverline and bicycle from Palmyra to the boat. I'm curious to see the Riverline's track north of Burlington, since there seems to be some serious unrepared damage from hurricane Irene, or at least they've been running a reduced schedule since Irene. So this time I'll take Riverline to Trenton and SEPTA Trenton line south to Torresdale, something I haven't done yet in part because I haven't wanted to hassle with buying yet another ticket Trenton-Torresdale which will wind up in my wallet forever, and because I'm reluctant to pay the surcharge. And because my wife might be available to drive me home, I'm really reluctant to have 2 of those tickets wasting away in my wallet.

One hope I have is that maybe NJT's will sell a SEPTA ticket to Torresdale. I'm taking an earlier Riverline train, a 38 minute connection instead of an 8 minute connection, that should give me plenty of time to explore all of the tickets NJT at Trenton offers.

Pat, I've contended for years that SEPTA's pricing policies are counterproductive based on examples like yours, not to mention the ill will caused by the perception that non-regular riders are being specifically targeted by policies such as the surcharge-that-isn't. But as Matt has noted several times, discussions with SEPTA revenue people immediately run up against the fixation that revenue leakage should be addressed by restricting how and when riders can pay as opposed to making it easier for them.

And FWIW I believe that tickets expire after a certain time has elapsed, usually 180 days, so that old off-peak ticket may have evaporated.

yep, I know tickets expire after a while, and I may have problems if I ever try to use the zone 3/4/5 evening-weekend one-way in my wallet, Jul 02, 2010.
As for today's trip, I wound up driving anyway, so I still don't know if I can get an Trenton-Torresdale ticket at Trenton station.

Patrick Boylan wrote:As for today's trip, I wound up driving anyway, so I still don't know if I can get an Trenton-Torresdale ticket at Trenton station.

Yes, those are available from the NJT TVMs.

I know this is mainly about RFC and NPT, but the existing fare collection has apparently switched to "CF-11" for receipts, and now when you purchase (at least an individual) Independence Pass on board, they give you the actual pass, instead of the fare receipt to take to a CC window for exchange. This has been since about 9/15/11.

Flyer78 wrote:I know this is mainly about RFC and NPT, but the existing fare collection has apparently switched to "CF-11" for receipts, and now when you purchase (at least an individual) Independence Pass on board, they give you the actual pass, instead of the fare receipt to take to a CC window for exchange. This has been since about 9/15/11.

This is fantastic. I think, if I 'm not mistaken, they do NOT charge a surcharge for buying the Independence Pass on board. That pass, if I'm not mistaken, would cover a roundtrip fare if you are coming from a zone 3+ station. Kinda makes you wonder about the surcharge-that-isn't-a-surcharge... *shrug*. Not that I'm complaining or anything about buying the pass on board trains.