Routes where Amtrak frequencies/speeds exceed 1951?

So, in another topic I noted that the Seattle-Portland running times are significantly lower than they were in 1951, and there are more total frequencies.

What other Amtrak city pairs have *better* rail service than they did in 1951, by this highly specific definition? Either higher frequencies, or lower running times. Anyone who's got old timetables which cover more than one railroad may be able to help.

I am not actually sure that there are any others with higher frequencies -- for instance, Philadelphia-New York has a lot of services now, especially counting the commuter lines, but I don't know if they're more than the PRR ran, and there used to be several other Philly-NYC railroads on different sets of tracks! I should hope the NEC has shorter running times, though.

I'm sure NYP-BOS improved in running time upon electrfication in 2000. During the the PC years, service dropped to just about 8 trips a today. Today's schedule has over 20 (both Acela Express and Regional).

Oakland-Sacramento has more trains than 1951, and a six-stop train now is faster than a six-stop train then.

LA-San Diego has more trains-- probably making more stops so they're slower than 1951?

I'm guessing Philly - Harrisburg might be one.

I would agree. Keystone service has seen improved speeds and increased service, especially after electric service beginning in 2006.

Empire Service (NYC Water Level main line) also has seen improved schedules and now high speed service over 90 mph on some sections. Reportedly the Empire Corridor is geared for 110 mph service.

LA - San Diego is of course an example where there many TIMES more frequencies than in the Santa Fe days with the San Diegans when three a day was the norm.Now I believe there are 12 trains with several of those being through trains from Santa Barbara and even San Luis Obispo.

Seattle - Vancouver does not yet have the 3-a-day frequency of GN's Internationals but they are pressing hard to make it a reality and 2 of them would provide through service to Portland.

How many Boston - Portland trains did the B&M provide?? Did it exceed the 5 per day Amtrak now runs???

How many combined trains did Santa Fe and Southern Pacific provide in the San Joaquin valley???

Matt Johnson wrote:I'm guessing Philly - Harrisburg might be one.

Hmmm.....Philly to Harrisburg would be interesting, as I know Harrisburg served a lot of long distance trains. Whether they all allowed "receive" and "discharge" passengers in between would be of interest. Then I think there may have been some commuter trains serving various sections - similiar to SEPTA but perhaps even farther to Harrisburg itself. Then were there Philly to Pittsburgh trains in more frequency?

This would be a curious one for me. Obviously the PRR electrified to Harrisburg and made the engine change there for the number of frequencies and "speed" through the Northeast "zones" if you will. But again, whether they allowed "R" and "D" is questionable, compared to frequencies and speed of today's Keystone. I also think today's Keystone from Philly to Harrisburg is finally comparable to the PRR days. It had been dragging, or lagging, behind!

What about NYP to the Albany area? I'd be curious about that one too. Could the NYC outperform Amtrak on this corridor in speed and frequency?

jp1822 wrote:What about NYP to the Albany area? I'd be curious about that one too. Could the NYC outperform Amtrak on this corridor in speed and frequency?

I'm gonna guess that the New York Central system of 1951 BY FAR well outclassed any Amtrak Offering, even on the Empire Corridor. In fact, I will even go out on a limb and go as far as to guess that the New York Central of 1968 provided more train service by itself than what Amtrak did as a whole when it came into being in 1971.


We're still talking about a railroad that offered muliple frequencies even on its branch lines well into the 1960's and still had over 400 sleepers on its roster at the dawn of Amtrak.

kmillard wrote: How many Boston - Portland trains did the B&M provide?? Did it exceed the 5 per day Amtrak now runs???

The closest timetable I have to 1951 is fall 1956. At that point the B&M had nine trains each way between Boston and Portland on weekdays, including an overnight mail and express train that carried passengers (but probably not many) and several through trains for points farther north on the Maine Central. Best running time was an even two hours.

On the New Haven in the fall of 1951, Boston-New York service was basically hourly during the day with 16 trains each way on weekdays. Best running time was four hours from South Station to Grand Central, by three of those trains each way.

I wonder if the ex-SP mainline from Portland to Eugene would qualify - three trains today (two Cascades, and the Starlight) versus two in 1958...not sure about 1951 since the only timetable I can find is '58.

Running time in '58 was 2:29 southbound for both trains 9 (Shasta Daylight) and 11 (Cascade); and 2:20 northbound for trains 10 (Shasta Daylight) and 12 (Cascade). Today, Amtrak takes about 2:35 southbound for trains 507/509, and 2:45 for train 11 (Coast Starlight). Can't accurately determine northbound thanks to Amtrak padding the schedule (it does not take 40 minutes to get from Oregon City to Union Station; even the worst rush hour traffic on McLoughlin will still beat that!)

In addition to the Shasta and the Cascade, there was also a Mail train leaving Portland 10PM or thereabouts and arriving Oakland about 4PM the following afternoon. Passenger accommodations, a heavyweight Battleship Grey "Harriman' Coach.

This was the kind of train to which Mr. Weaver's comment made at another topic aptly applies.

Noel Weaver wrote:Amtrak was a downgrading of the best and an improvement over the worst.

If you are willing to push back the base year about twice as far, I have ranges of frequencies of passenger trains in each direction, compiled from a 1940 Official Guide (interurbans and commuter lines excluded):

Over 30:
NY-Phila, PRR

20 to 29:
NY-Albany-Buffalo, NYC; Phila-Wash, PRR; Phila-Atlantic City PRSL

15 to 19:
NY-Boston via both Providence and Springfield, NH and NYC
Jersey City-Phila, RDG/B&O
Phila-Pittsburgh, PRR
Pittsburgh-Youngstown, P&LE
Buffalo-Chicago, Detroit-Chicago, NYC

10-14:
Phila-Reading and Bethlehem, RDG
Springfield-Albany, Cincinnati-Indianapolis; NYC
Pittsburgh-Chicago and Cincinnati-Richmond, PRR
Phila-Washington-Cumberland, B&O
Washington-RIchmond, RF&P
Washington-Lynchburg, SR
Chicago-Milwaukee, both C&NW and MILW
Chicago-Kankakee, NYC and IC on same tracks
Chicago-Bureau, RI main line and Peoria trains combined

Some routes have changed and some haven't!

In September, 1952 the New Haven operated 18 WB and 17 EB trains on the New York - Boston run but this does not tell the
entire story. Some of the trains were overnight trains that existed primarily for mail or express. They also ran trains in each direction just for mail and express too. You would really have to say that there is more service today on this run than
there was in 1952.
On other non commuter routes of the New Haven the service is generally less than what was in 1952 but on the commuter
lines that are still in operation there is much more service in some cases than existed in 1952.
On the Boston and Maine there was probably twice as much service in the early to mid 50's than today bet Boston and Portland.
Corridor services in California basically did not exist prior to the state getting involved in support so San Diego, Sacramento
and other places have the most trains that they ever had.
On the New York Central there was way more service between New York and Albany in the early 50's than there is today. It
was not intended as corridor type service but rather as long haul service making stops between New York and Albany. Same
on the Pennsylvania between Philadelphia and Harrisburg with the long distance trains there were more total trains although
probably the intermediate stops today have more service than in PRR days.
Without checking the timetables I think it is safe to say that there are probably more trains between New York and
Washington today than in the PRR days although there were a lot of through trains to points beyond Washington that today
are no longer in the timetable. One thing missing is the "Clockers" between New York and Philadelphia which ran at
frequent intervals between New York and Philadelphia.
Where the states have shown an interest in intercity corridor services like in California, the service is excellent but where
the states have not shown any interest in rail passenger service such as Florida, the service is far less than years ago.
Noel Weaver

Thanks for the very interesting data.

So California really didn't have many trains back in the 40s and 50s, and is at record highs. Particularly interesting. I suppose this is partly related to the massive increases in California population.

jp1822 wrote:

Matt Johnson wrote:I'm guessing Philly - Harrisburg might be one.

Hmmm.....Philly to Harrisburg would be interesting, as I know Harrisburg served a lot of long distance trains. Whether they all allowed "receive" and "discharge" passengers in between would be of interest. Then I think there may have been some commuter trains serving various sections - similiar to SEPTA but perhaps even farther to Harrisburg itself. Then were there Philly to Pittsburgh trains in more frequency?

This would be a curious one for me. Obviously the PRR electrified to Harrisburg and made the engine change there for the number of frequencies and "speed" through the Northeast "zones" if you will. But again, whether they allowed "R" and "D" is questionable, compared to frequencies and speed of today's Keystone. I also think today's Keystone from Philly to Harrisburg is finally comparable to the PRR days. It had been dragging, or lagging, behind!

What about NYP to the Albany area? I'd be curious about that one too. Could the NYC outperform Amtrak on this corridor in speed and frequency?

Keep in mind that today's Albany station is in Renssalaer, while in 1951 the stop was downtown. The railroad mileage to the old station would probably have been slightly further, and it involved some sharp curves and a bridge. However, today a traveller must transfer to a bus or cab for a ride to downtown Albany. I'm not sure how it would all come out in the wash, if you could wash apples and oranges together.