LSL schedule change & sleeper added

For $1.6M it would appear Amtrak is being pretty serious about restoring this car, as I think the original Viewliner sleepers cost around $2M each. And at least for the Diner - we got the frame and some interior I would hope. Hopefully the plan is to restore the 8400 Viewliner Diner - run it - and experiment to see what design is best for an order of 25 single level Diners to replace the Heritage Diners that exist. But considering this is still along way from procurement, it would have been nice if Amtrak would have also put two more Heritage Diners back on the roster (they are sitting in storage at Beech Grove), along with the Viewliner 8400 so the Lake Shore Limited train sets could operate with three Diners (2 Heritage Diners and the 1 8400 Viewliner Diner). Amtrak will likely tow around the Amfleet Diner Lite cars on the Lake Shore Limited, so if the Heritage Diner or Viewliner Diner were to fail, that would be the backup - the Amfleet Diner Lite car. After all - this car was supposed to handle all food sales - lounge, dining etc. This would really put Amtrak to the test if it were to happen on the Lake Shore Limited. The Cardinal can handle one Amfleet Diner-Lite due to its short consist.

All the single level long distance trains suffer from a descent lounge car. The Viewliner Diner 8400 actually would also be nice as a dining and lounge car for viewing the scenery - with the double row of windows. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. The main purpose of the Viewliner Diner would be to provide dining in the form of a Heritage Diner, just updated (that is separate kitchen that is closed off to the public - not open for all to see on the Amfleet Diner-Lite cars - and booth style seating. I am sure if the kinks could have been worked out of the Viewliner Diner the first time, we wouldn't have had to go through the exercise of making an Amfleet Diner-Lite (money down the drain). Car is absolutely useless as a "dining car" in my opinion. The setup is absolutely horrible. They couldn't even get it right with an updated Superliner Diner-Lounge car.

EDIT - Let's hope Mr. Norman that perhaps Amtrak would also get smart to try and put the prototype Viewliners back in service too, if Amtrak is "that serious about bolstering its sleeping car service" as has been indicated. I don't know what would be blocking this per say - other than money and perhaps if the cars have been "ripped apart too much," which Amtrak should have allocated for in its $1.3B funding. This could have been "project ready" - as I am sure parts may need to fabricated (someone hired to do at least an initial evaluation of such). And while parts are being fabricated - the car could be cleaned, new cushions put in as well as starting the major overhaul to get the car road worthy (to add simplicity to this). The prototypes would have been perfect for restoring overnight sleeper service on the NEC. If Amtrak had a problem with one of the prototype Viewliner sleepers - it could merely use one of the 11 Viewliner sleepers it has in "reserve." Amtrak could tack a "reserve" Viewliner it may have in Sunnyside, NYC to a Northeast Regional train (suffering a slight delay in route due to lower speeds) to get it to Boston or Washington DC to cover the service if it were to be out of service for a lengthy period of time. A Viewliner sleeper on the NEC could generate over $5,000 per trip if sold out and you consider a roomette (and handicap room) that could go for $300 and a bedroom for $600. The $300 price is largely equivalent to any overnight stay in a Northeast city if you consider meal and hotel let alone alternate mode of travel to get to the destination (likely compared to Acela Express First Class, Northeast Regional coach, or airplane and cost to get to airport).

jp1822 wrote: The $300 price is largely equivalent to any overnight stay in a Northeast city if you consider meal and hotel let alone alternate mode of travel to get to the destination (likely compared to Acela Express First Class, Northeast Regional coach, or airplane and cost to get to airport).

I don't disagree with your basic point about the benefits of a sleeper on the Boston-Washington route, but how many people not on an expense account stay in a $300 hotel these days? I just booked a room in a very decent hotel in center city Philadelphia for $120 a night for a May trip, and aside from that place (where I've stayed before) there seemed to be several other options in the same price range. Manhattan may be an exception, but unless you want to spend that sort of money on a first class hotel for the amenities, you certainly don't have to pay that much for a night's lodging in an NEC city. I last rode a sleeper on the corridor back when the Night Owl carried a Slumbercoach, where you could get a bed for something less than $50 above coach fare. Once that was dropped, I was priced out and have traveled coach ever since. In the current economic climate I suspect that a lot of other people might be watching their travel costs these days.

TomNelligan wrote:

jp1822 wrote: The $300 price is largely equivalent to any overnight stay in a Northeast city if you consider meal and hotel let alone alternate mode of travel to get to the destination (likely compared to Acela Express First Class, Northeast Regional coach, or airplane and cost to get to airport).

I don't disagree with your basic point about the benefits of a sleeper on the Boston-Washington route, but how many people not on an expense account stay in a $300 hotel these days? I just booked a room in a very decent hotel in center city Philadelphia for $120 a night for a May trip, and aside from that place (where I've stayed before) there seemed to be several other options in the same price range. Manhattan may be an exception, but unless you want to spend that sort of money on a first class hotel for the amenities, you certainly don't have to pay that much for a night's lodging in an NEC city . . . In the current economic climate I suspect that a lot of other people might be watching their travel costs these days.

Philadelphia has relatively low hotel rates, due (according to my guidebook) at least in part to their hotel expansion a political convention some years ago. As you note, Manhattan is VERY different. Last October, I spent $330 for a night . . . in a Holiday Inn Express . . . in Brooklyn! And around the holidays there are simply no rooms to be had at ANY price. Boston has been almost as bad the times I've stayed there, and I have never stayed in DC. Your point about the current economy is perfectly valid; hotel rates in NYC have indeed gone down since the trip I mentioned, but that won't last forever. If it does, we've got bigger problems.

You might get away with charging around the $300/night IF Amtrak insists on only running one car on one train. As another poster once said, "a blind monkey should be able to fill that." Someday, if we get a few more cars to play with, the prices would have to go down. The average non-railfan isn't going to pay the same as a hotel for an Amtrak roomette. The idea would hopefully be to offer a cost ADVANTAGE over the hotel prices, in addition to the time and convenience. Not hard to do in these markets.

For the record, my fiance and I would use a re-instated Night Owl/Twilight Shoreliner/Federal at least yearly, probably more.

I agree tha hotel prices in certain Northeast cities have come down recently during our "slip in the economy" - aside from NYC and Boston. Washington DC, I just saw hotel prices in the $250 range for my company and their business travel. Unfortunately, I can't post prices, per the rules of the site. Course if Amtrak is going to go after business people or leisure travellers for the sleeper service on the NEC the passenger would have to be convinced this would be 1) "the way to go" and 2) comparable in price to an alternative mode of transportation.

And to compare a Viewliner sleeper operating on the NEC, I chose to compare it against Acela Express First Class travel on the NEC. The last "First Class" train from Boston to say Philly or Washington DC would be at 4:00 p.m. (almost a full work day) aboard Acela Express. The fare of such would be comparable to likely what a Viewliner sleeper would be in a roomette. Only, by taking the Viewliner sleeper, one would get to have more time in say Boston, before boarding the train with a sleeper to the southern section of the NEC, in this example. And hopefully with restoration of the sleeper car service on the NEC, one would get an evening snack (often cheese, crackers, wine etc.) and then a continental breakfast (or more complete breakfast in the adjacent Cafe Car) as part of the sleeper price.

Amtrak was able to sell the sleeper class before on the NEC, I'd hope it could be done again. And as mentioned, if Amtrak can keep the price down further, that's all in their favor. The overnight sleeper on the NEC used to have very good patronage when I took it. Course I thought the train extended to the Tidewater section of Virginia made more sense, as this allowed people to avoid a long all day-trip aboard an Amtrak train. Whereby on the Twilight Shoreliner, passengers got to use the sleeper more as a "hotel on wheels." But the Twilight Shoreliner often didn't have good calling times from Washington DC to at least Baltimore and Providence to at least Boston, which is absolute key. Course I last rode the Twilight Shoreliner and Federal before the Viewliner sleeper prices in general, seemed to take a high spike upwards! Supply and demand pricing would likely dictate the price of the Viewliner sleeper along such a route, so it's possible my $300 price point could be reduced - if Amtrak could balance things out!

Keep in mind there was sleeping car service on the NEC from A-Day (and prior) until 2006! So somehow a market was found for this service. Amtrak would just have to "find it" again using whatever price and amenity strategy could apply.

Getting back to the Lake Shore, today's Boston Globe has a front page article on the sleeper restoration:

Amtrak, in nod to nostalgia, brings back sleeper car

The second page of the article has this tidbit:

The decision to bring back sleeper cars is part of a broader campaign to attract riders at a time when overnight train travel has surged 7 percent between October and March, compared with the same period in 2007 and 2008. Officials attribute the increase to riders who fled high gas prices last summer, then stuck with the train because they liked it. The Boston-to-Chicago line, which saw a 1.9 percent increase during the period, is one of six trains nationwide targeted for upgrades.

TomNelligan wrote:Getting back to the Lake Shore, today's Boston Globe has a front page article on the sleeper restoration:

Amtrak, in nod to nostalgia, brings back sleeper car

great article although the diner lite currently does not run to boston.

hi55us wrote:

TomNelligan wrote:Getting back to the Lake Shore, today's Boston Globe has a front page article on the sleeper restoration:

Amtrak, in nod to nostalgia, brings back sleeper car

great article although the diner lite currently does not run to boston.

And, having unexpectedly taken it from CHI to NYP, arriving NYP on March 30th, when Train 4 was too late for my connection to 30, even the diner lite is not open for business between Albany and NYC, except for offering a few sandwiches, chips, soda. The lounge car did continue to Boston, presumably offering the same.

Despite having been a sleeping car passenger, the sandwiches, etc. were not included. Only the wine and cheese in Chicago, and breakfast and lunch. The train did arrive at NYP only one minute late.

Ken W2KB wrote: And, having unexpectedly taken it from CHI to NYP, arriving NYP on March 30th, when Train 4 was too late for my connection to 30, even the diner lite is not open for business between Albany and NYC, except for offering a few sandwiches, chips, soda. The lounge car did continue to Boston, presumably offering the same.

Despite having been a sleeping car passenger, the sandwiches, etc. were not included. Only the wine and cheese in Chicago, and breakfast and lunch. The train did arrive at NYP only one minute late.

So they did sell food out of the diner-lite between Albany and NYP? I had heard before there was not food service at all for that segment. It is good to know that there will be when I am on it in June.

TomNelligan wrote:Getting back to the Lake Shore, today's Boston Globe has a front page article on the sleeper restoration:

Amtrak, in nod to nostalgia, brings back sleeper car

What is it about journalists that anything to do with trains has to have "nostalgia" brought into it? I suppose they must teach that at journalism school, along with the fact that all trains "chug" even though steam engines have been gone for 50+ years

You would think that at least in the northeast train travel could be taken seriously and not treated like it is some kind of museum operation.

Jon

• "We're going after a different market than those people who might fly," said Brian Rosenwald, Amtrak's chief of product management. "We are catering to a leisure market where people might be interested in the advantages of train travel, which would include a day away from day-to-day aggravation, a chance to see the countryside, and enjoy freshly prepared meals - kind of a minicruise concept on land, rather than on sea."

I'm not sure if the comments made by Mr. Rosenwald (who I have had occasion to meet face to face "along the way") exactly help "the cause'; well maybe if 'the cause' is to bring passengers to Amtrak in the quest of a fifty year old "time warp" journey.

Volks, much as I continue to hold, and fortified by my Auto Train journey last week, that LD travel to me represents "more positives than negatives', such is not what 21st century passenger railroading is all about - LD's up, Corridors down notwithstanding.

GBN,

You were up early this morning!

Let's talk about corridor vs. LD. Where does corridor stop being corridor and become LD? Is it a function of distance, or of kind of ridership, or of volume of ridership? I haven't ridden 48/49 for a couple of years, but everytime I have it's been full. I don't think all those people are there for "nostalgia". I wish Mr. Rosenwald would look forward to what train travel can provide rather than looking backward. Furthermore, what is Chief of Product Management anyway. I thought Amtak provided a service, not products. So what does he manage? Sorry about that; it's been a tough week.

TB

Mr. Rosenwald's comments in the article make perfect sense to me. Amtrak can never promote its high-priced sleeping accomodations as faster or cheaper (with advance purchase at least) than air travel, the primary mode of long distance travel in this country, so they need to push ambiance, nostalgia, and the "cruise" aspect of the trip. And that in turn is likely to appeal to an older and more affluent demographic. The market for coach travel is a very different thing, since coach seats can be relatively inexpensive, and thus attractive to people who just need to get somewhere as opposed to have a travel "experience".

Not that I want to sidetrack into a policy discussion but....

I'd prefer that my tax dollars not pay for affluent people's 'minicruises'.

Mr. Law, that thought is very much "on topic'; as I noted earlier, I must wonder if Mr. Rosenwald's thoughts expressed to a leading newspaper are REALLY in Amtrak's best interest.

However, if one is to review Mr. Rosenwald's "CV" at Amtrak (he's been there essentially since A-Day), one will find that most of such has been with the LD product line.

However, while I'm free to hold that Amtrak made this service enhancement including the through Coach and Dining service because some pol was leaning on Amtrak to do so, a spokesman "simply don't say that" - even if such is the truth!!!