Otto's article on Mattapan Line

SbooX wrote:

MBTA1 wrote: Instead of low floors what about One wheel chair lift on each side of the train?

How costly would it be to add two wheel chair lifts to the existing T7's?

Its irrelevant since it wouldn't fulfill ADA requirements. For ADA compliance wheelchairs need to be able to board without the use of lifts, hence the low floors everyone is using nowadays. Besides, it would likely take 2-3 minutes to load or unload one wheelchair. Can you say traffic jam?

The inconvenience is irrelevant to the rest of the passengers when the law requires that the T provide assistance to handicapped passengers. They MUST assist. Frankly, doing lifts right on the vehicles would probably work a lot faster and more reliably than those manual lifts-on-wheels present in a lot of the stations. Too many operators won't even get out to work one of those manual lifts. I was on the inbound platform at Prudential last week when one woman in a wheelchair had to wait for THREE trains to go by before somebody would do their job, get out, and hoist her on to the lift that was sitting there on the platform. If that isn't against the law, I don't know what is. The T is used to using on-vehicle lifts with its bus fleet. Retrofitting trolleys with the same should provide for similar routine when the situation comes up...and will at least prevent embarassing ILLEGAL acts of negligence like happens too often when they leave people in wheelchairs stranded because they're too lazy to operate a frigging manual lift.

Also, I think there are grandfathering issues at work that exempt the old lines from complete and total requirements of ADA compliance. For example, the T is under no obligation to upgrade the stops on the Brigham Circle-to-Heath St. street-running portion of the E line because the line has been in continuous use since before the laws were passed. Same goes for the other existing Green Line branches, and the High Speed Line. Because of that, Type 7's with wheelchair lifts would work if low-floor, non-lift infrastructure is prohibitive to implement (which it's proving to be). I just don't think you'd be able to run a full fleet of nothing but those cars on "new" construction (Arborway restoration, West Medford) and still remain in compliance.

But it's better than nothing, and probably wouldn't be that hard to do with the existing Type 7 fleet, or even the older cars on the High Speed Line (which will be waiting many, many years for its ADA compliance). They were able to tuck those lifts into the RTS busses with no problems. Even the T's solution of trainlining Type 7's with Type 8's to achieve full compliance isn't working out. The Breda's aren't running on 3 of the 4 lines because of performance issues, and they're doing a spotty job even on the B of mixing and matching cars. You're as likely to get either an all-Breda 2-car train or an all-Kinki 2-car train than you are to get a mixed set...and that's just not satisfactory ADA compliance.

Some good points there. I was thinking that on vehicle lifts would be pointless since eventually all LRV's will be low floor, handicap accessible, and all stations will have the necessary platform. Upon reflection though, we may easily be looking at 20-30 more years with at least a few of the Type 7's, not to mention who knows when all surface stops will be updated. Maybe its worth taking a look at, since it would be a lot easier than those aweful manual lifts. (Though wasn't the T looking at buying electric lifts for some stations? Maybe better/cheaper?)

For the long term though, whats most important is to place an order for a new low floor vehicle that works. In the short term, it seems to me that the most important thing is that T employees follow the law and do their job. If you see someone not assisting a disabled passenger, say something to them and/or file a complaint with the T.

If bus-style lifts were the answer, they would have been installed a long-time ago. They are not the answer. On a busy bus route, one coach can pull over and take the few minutes necessary to board a wheelchair while other buses pass it by and continue on the route. Light-rail vehicles cannot do this. Wheelchair lifts on the Green Line would be an operational nightmare.

Many well-run transit agencies with light rail lines have grappled with this issue, and one common solution has been chosen time and time again - low-floor vehicles. The MBTA needs to take a serious look at agencies who have retrofitted older cars with low-floor center sections and get to work on modifying the Type 7's. I'm confident it can be done.

JD

If you want to hear about the success (or lack thereof) of chair lifts on high-floor trolleys, all you have to do is read the discussion about Philly's Route 15 over at the SEPTA forum. Tales of taking several minutes or more to load a wheelchair on the PCC-II's with the new lifts.

The only way the Green Line will work well and be ADA compliant is to match the floor of the train to the level of the platform. High level platforms would be best, but there's no way, even with a bottomless bag of money, that you're going to be able to install those on the surface branches. If the platform can't go up, the floor's got to go down -- let's just hope someone can build one that works.

The true shame of all this is that Kinki-Sharyo bid on the Type 8 contract, yet the MBTA decided to go with Breda's low bid. I'll bet they now wish they spent those few extra bucks up front.

Jim

The problem with low floor cars on the Green is two fold:

• 1. Almost any car that the T wants to run on the Green Line needs to negotiate several sharp turns which limit the car length and requires articulation. Many of the "off the shelf" low floor designs are far too long to be able to operate around some of the turning loops and most importantly, the Boylston Curve.
  
  2. Most "off the shelf" low floor cars have a top speed limit of around 35MPH because they are completely low-floor and do not have the same high powered traction motors as the Bredas or the high level Kinkis and Boeings. This would be fine for all of the lines EXCEPT the D for obivous reasons

The first problem is not too difficult to solve I think. The length of the car can be adjusted to make it able to fit the turns of the system. The second problem needs a change in the T's thinking about car purchases. I personally think that the T needs to consider treating the D line as a different line from the point of view of car purchases. Purchase enough Bredas or Breada-type mixed level cars to operate on the D only and convert the rest of the system to low floor cars with a speed restriction. This would not cause any detrement to service so far as I can see, except maybe on the West Medford extension (which would probably require that the D and A(?) (West Medford) lines be joined in service). Thoughts?

I think that this kind of change would benefit the M line as well because it could have new cars for the first time in many generations. I would recommend putting the new all-low platform cars down there as well rather than the hand-me-downs from the rest of the Green Line system.

-A