• Otto's article on Mattapan Line

  • Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.
Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

  by scoopernicus_in_Maine
 
Anyone know what the seating capacity is for those Skoda-Inekon Astras? Do they run on standard guage?

Luckily the PCC's do have a few years of life left in them, It'd be bad that if, at the end of their life, Boston decides to abandon the line altogether. It'd be good to know that modern equipment could be easily adapted to the line.

  by RailBus63
 
I believe Portland was able to buy those cars cheap because there were no federal funds involved, thus the 'Buy America' provision did not apply. For the MBTA to buy the same cars, the builder would likely have to set up a U.S. assembly plant and include a certain amount of American components in the car, which would undoubtedly drive up the price.

As to my earlier post about buying a small fleet of non-articulated cars - this could be done relatively reasonably if the MBTA combined the order with a larger order of regular Green Line cars. Both designs could share the same components, with the only difference being the carbody design.

If any newer cars are to be run on the High-Speed Line, I believe you'd also have to builder a proper shop building for the line.

JD

  by typesix
 
One correction Otto for the next update. The snowplow was converted from a Type 3 car, not a Type 5.

  by octr202
 
Here's a little more on Portland and the Skodas:

http://www.lrta.org/art0110.html

Assuming I did my math right, from the metric data in that article, the Skoda's are 66 feet long and a little over 8 feet wide. They tip the scales at about 31.7 tons, which is a good bit more than a PCC (IIRC about 22-23 tons), but I'm sure less than a Boeing or Type 7. They also list the car as having a top speed of 43.5 mph, and seating (in Portland's configuration) for only 30 people. All in all, probably a god candidate for a line like Mattapan, but I'm not so sure they'd be up to the demands of the Green Line.

  by typesix
 
Boston PCC weighs 20 tons and has seating capacity of about 40-42, crush capacity of about 140.

  by #5 - Dyre Ave
 
octr202 wrote:Here's a little more on Portland and the Skodas:

http://www.lrta.org/art0110.html

Assuming I did my math right, from the metric data in that article, the Skoda's are 66 feet long and a little over 8 feet wide. They tip the scales at about 31.7 tons, which is a good bit more than a PCC (IIRC about 22-23 tons), but I'm sure less than a Boeing or Type 7. They also list the car as having a top speed of 43.5 mph, and seating (in Portland's configuration) for only 30 people. All in all, probably a god candidate for a line like Mattapan, but I'm not so sure they'd be up to the demands of the Green Line.
With a top speed of 43.5 mph, they would probably not be suitable for the D branch with its high speeds (higher than Mattapan). The Skodas are narrower and shorter than the existing Green Line cars, so that could also be a problem for rush hour service on all four branches. (then again, the Bredas don't do so well during rush hours and Sox game days).

  by aline1969
 
the plow is also out of service.

  by #5 - Dyre Ave
 
Mdlbigcat wrote:
#5 - Dyre Ave wrote:True, maybe rebuilding the Boeings, yet again, is not worth the cost. But the line should be brought up to modern standards, because the PCC's will eventually wear out and will have to be replaced. Articulated LRV-style cars with pantographs and catenary are what most of the railcar companies are making now. If the T wants a small non-articulated car that runs off of trolley wires and uses a trolley pole, like the PCC, it may have to get custom-made cars, which will be a lot more expensive.
Has anyone thought of shipping the PCC's to Brookville and have them rebuilt like SEPTA did with the Rt. 15 cars? The only real change is to increase the voltage of the overhead like SEPTA did to accomondate the AC on the PCC2's.
The T should have done that in the first place. Then again, I've been reading on the SEPTA forum that the PCC2's aren't doing so well in service. I've been reading that the trolley poles are coming off the wires and that the lights don't all work and that the wheelchair lift is too slow.

  by #5 - Dyre Ave
 
RailBus63 wrote:I believe Portland was able to buy those cars cheap because there were no federal funds involved, thus the 'Buy America' provision did not apply. For the MBTA to buy the same cars, the builder would likely have to set up a U.S. assembly plant and include a certain amount of American components in the car, which would undoubtedly drive up the price.
Even if the T bought just a small amount of these cars just for Mattapan? Portland has seven Skoda cars. They're probably going to buy more of them when the line expansions take place.
RailBus63 wrote:As to my earlier post about buying a small fleet of non-articulated cars - this could be done relatively reasonably if the MBTA combined the order with a larger order of regular Green Line cars. Both designs could share the same components, with the only difference being the carbody design.

If any newer cars are to be run on the High-Speed Line, I believe you'd also have to builder a proper shop building for the line.

JD
True. The costs for 10-12 non-articulated railcars would be refelcted in the overall cost for new Green Line cars. It would certainly help if they had common components.

  by dudeursistershot
 
RailBus63 wrote:I believe Portland was able to buy those cars cheap because there were no federal funds involved, thus the 'Buy America' provision did not apply. For the MBTA to buy the same cars, the builder would likely have to set up a U.S. assembly plant and include a certain amount of American components in the car, which would undoubtedly drive up the price.
Are there any similar protectionism laws in Massachusetts? If not, I'd say just don't accept federal funds. It would probably cost less to pay for the whole thing ourselves than to have the feds pay for part and get poorly-made, overpriced parts.

It would probably be most cost-effective for the T to create a very well-designed standard LRV car, test it out, and replace ALL of the Green Line and Mattapan Line cars with it over time. Maintenence costs would be reduced significantly, and reliability would be improved as well.

I'd like to see a similar program for all MBTA heavy rail cars (Orange, Blue, and Red), buses, and commuter rail coaches (just use only bi-level Kawasakis).

  by typesix
 
Non-articulated cars are no problem to build, it would be even simpler because of the lack of the joint for electrical and other connections. Trolley pole cars are again no big deal and makes for a simpler roof. The current rebuilds are said by the T to be good for another 10-15 years, although they still did not fix the inadequate heat from the first rebuild(replaced original dynamic brake heat).
  by San Diego Transit
 
It just dawned on me: I can't believe the slow progress and the nonsense involved over the years with the T not wanting to re-insitute A and E service only to see the T actually do not too bad a job with keeping the Mattapan-Ashmont line running. I don't get their priorities; BRT. No A no E. I just don't get it.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
San Diego Transit wrote:It just dawned on me: I can't believe the slow progress and the nonsense involved over the years with the T not wanting to re-insitute A and E service only to see the T actually do not too bad a job with keeping the Mattapan-Ashmont line running. I don't get their priorities; BRT. No A no E. I just don't get it.
Doesn't take much effort to keep the M up and running. Simple equipment running on feeble power on crap-quality rails on a woodland ROW with a simple outdoor yard at the end. Not exactly tremendous degree of difficulty keeping that line running. Maybe the T would fare better if it went the rustic/early-20th-century approach with some of its "modern" lines.

  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
#5 - Dyre Ave wrote:True, maybe rebuilding the Boeings, yet again, is not worth the cost. But the line should be brought up to modern standards, because the PCC's will eventually wear out and will have to be replaced. Articulated LRV-style cars with pantographs and catenary are what most of the railcar companies are making now. If the T wants a small non-articulated car that runs off of trolley wires and uses a trolley pole, like the PCC, it may have to get custom-made cars, which will be a lot more expensive.
They wouldn't necessarily have to rebuild to run them on the M if they're just augmenting the PCC fleet. They've only got 9 cars to work with (10 when the last one returns from the rebuild), and in non-rush hour probably half of them are in-service. Don't have enough to do 2-car trains during peak hours. Don't have enough to run the line in really bad weather. There's two grade crossings, meaning it's not out of the possibility that one of these cars is going to get wrecked in an auto collision someday. And they're 60 years old. Things break, things rust, and there's few replacement parts. Odds are that fleet is going to be a whole lot smaller than 10 cars before the end of their service lives. It's simply too small a margin to ensure adequate service on the line for the next 20 years.

Frankly, when the PCC's get retired for good...they should be replaced by--at minimum--refurbished Type 7's. But that's 10 years or more from now. Unmodified Boeings can start servicing the line much sooner than that, and simply augment the existing fleet so its numbers are a little healthier. The Ashmont ramp is getting reconstructed, presumably to modern standards of LRV weight loads. That's the biggest infrastructure improvement needed. The other bridges are small...we wouldn't be talking big bucks to reinforce them. And then all you need is a small substation to give the line its own power source instead of siphoning off the Red Line like an overloaded wall outlet (probably not a good idea anyway when the 01500/01600's get replaced by more power-hungry new equipment servicing Ashmont). That'll be expensive, but not killer expensive...nothing compared to the Green Line power upgrades required to get all those lines into the post-PCC era. And they may have to widen the tiny loop next to the Mattapan platforms or just not use it anymore.

But that's it. Boeings can run on poles out of the box, meaning they don't have to upgrade the overhead yet. The only thing they'd have to do is hook up a pole to the cars like the first two units had. I'm sure Riverside carhouse has extra poles on-hand. They don't even have to take off pantographs off. Just leave 'em there, in case you need to truck them back to the Green Line for service. Do a fleet of half-PCC's and half-Boeings...with mostly-Boeings and 2-car trains all around at rush hour, and mostly-Boeings when it's hot out. Run PCC's all the time but especially in off-peak hours and on weekends, and limit the unrebuilt Boeings' service hours to weekdays/daylight to limit the wear and tear. If a car fails...oh well, slap a pole on another Boeing sitting in Riverside yard and truck it down to Mattapan.

Trolley car shortages are going to be a way of life on the Green Line for awhile longer, so I doubt those Boeings are going to completely go away for another 5 years or more even if they stay largely idle during off-peak hours. The Bredas are too unreliable and there just aren't enough Type 7's...they HAVE to be there for backup until a new order of RELIABLE cars gets delivered. That'll surely eat up the last of the PCC's lifespan given Mattapan's place on the priority list, so the T either has a choice to cheat disaster with an inadequate-sized fleet until then...or do some small-scale infrastructure upgrades and spread out some extra rolling stock they already have in-hand to improve service in the mean time. Boeings are a medium-term solution to a potentially big problem of car shortages on that line. Long-term will have to require a newer ADA-accessible fleet and pantographs...but that's a decade-plus away at minimum and they've got to do something to make do until then. Squeezing more life out of the LRV's is a better solution than watching the PCC fleet slowly dwindle to the point where they can't cover enough service or--gasp!--the line has to be bustituted if enough are out-of-service at once.

  by Red Wing
 
dudeursistershot said:

"Are there any similar protectionism laws in Massachusetts? If not, I'd say just don't accept federal funds. It would probably cost less to pay for the whole thing ourselves than to have the feds pay for part and get poorly-made, overpriced parts. "

I am not sure about any MGL's that would not let you buy non American, after all the old Department of Environmental Management had Mitsubishi SUV's back in the late 80's early 90's but Union's would not be happy.