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  • NYC MTA Congestion Pricing Effects on NYCT, NJT, MNRR, and LIRR

  • This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.
It is currently Fri May 03, 2024 1:11 pm

NYC MTA Congestion Pricing Effects on NYCT, NJT, MNRR, and LIRR

This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

Re: NJ-ARP: 'Escape' analogy in reverse.

  by pdtrains
 
<g>
The radio personality Jean Shepherd used to point out from time to time that New York City (meaning Manhattan) was the only city in the US that charged admission. <g>
OK, I'm a little off topic…but someone else used to listen to Jean Shepherd on WOR AM 10pm, forty years ago. Way to go.

New Yorkers Favor Manhattan Entry Fees to Cut Transit Fares

  by themallard
 
New Yorkers Favor Manhattan Entry Fees to Cut Transit Fares

By Henry Goldman

June 19 (Bloomberg) -- New York State voters would support weekday fees for motorists entering Manhattan's most congested sections if they prevented increases in mass-transit fares and bridge and tunnel tolls, a Quinnipiac University poll found. ...
...New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine yesterday questioned whether mass transit can serve tens of thousands of commuters who rely upon cars to get to work.``We don't have the capacity to handle dramatic surges in additional riders with our mass transit system,'' Corzine told reporters.'' ``A lot of people find congestion pricing intriguing. I would like to know what its real impact would be on New Jersey.''...
Bloomberg

  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone: Interesting topic! I will contribute this link to the congestion pricing debate: WWW.CCLONDON.COM/ - this is the Transport for London website showing how the pricing system works and offers other transit and rail links. Take a look and see for yourselves! MACTRAXX

Build the Secaucus Parking Deck

  by pateljones
 
The Secaucus Parking Deck will be much used when congestion pricing becomes real. The private company that wants to build it should get the blessing of NJ now and built it now.

NJ-ARP: Make them pay.

  by Douglas John Bowen
 
Should New York succeed in implementing a congestion pricing policy, we sure hope that New Jersey doesn't follow its usual pattern of being a willing parking lot at below-market prices.

Put differently, if parking must be foisted on Secaucus Junction, then charge a hefty fee. Make auto users pay for the privilege, save perhaps those who actually live in Secaucus.

NJ-ARP remains convinced that copious parking at Secaucus Junction is not, repeat not, in New Jersey Transit's best interests, let alone the interests of area residents and even those who already drive in the area.

  by RichM
 
I'm afraid to post anything in this thread again, but here goes... Doug, again my friend, I disagree... only from the perspective that the current state of mass transit in Bergen County has extremely limited parking anywhere, especially for non-residents. Where there is, it is often restricted to monthly users or some other limitation, often space alone. This for mass transit in general, buses or rails.

So my gut tells me that a comprehensive Park and Ride system has to be a part of any planning. Maybe Secaucus Junction isn't perfect, and shouldn't be the ONLY major hub, but at least there's space, connections, and limited NIMBY's.

NJ-ARP: T.H.E. Tunnel part of that?

  by Douglas John Bowen
 
Rich M. makes a decent case/plea, particularly from a Bergen County perspective. But turnabout is fair play: What price perfection? Can NJ-ARP insist T.H.E. Tunnel, and added NEC capacity, are in the mix as well before adding the parking spaces so desired?

Or it is first come, first served, durned be the rider who can't fit on at Secaucus (or at New York-Penn, if outbound)? Fair or not, that simply isn't a good fiscal plan for New Jersey Transit, no matter how disadvantaged Bergen County is (and we agree with RichM--Bergen continuously gets the short end).

But, then again, we at NJ-ARP aren't saying "no parking, no way." What we're saying is: Make them pay. If it's really in such demand -- and if we're really serious about auto alternatives (of which this is not really one) -- then make them pay.

Moving one's problems (New York congestion, Bergen County immobility) to another locale may be politically expedient. We question the wisdom of such a move.

On the chance that RichM was referring to NJ-ARP being the source of any "fear," we continue to welcome his input, and are not aware of any effort to discourage same. Reminding us of Bergen's woeful transit state of affairs is a valid point, despite our take on overall matters.

  by RichM
 
Thank you my friend, and I fear not NJ-ARP. You're swinging for the fences with most of us.

To reinforce your point, I am in complete agreement that this is a paying proposition. Nor is simply building one parking lot a solution. My poorly stated initial point in all this was: don't impose a new bureaucracy and methodology to collect a new local tax... the same revenue and disincentive to drive can be created by parking fees and tolls... but that some portion of those drivers would stop driving if a practical alternative existed.

NJT and NYC congestion pricing?

  by northjerseybuff
 
Anyone following the NYC congestion pricing story? In some recent articles, politicians are stating NJT is at capacity and can't accommodate more people. Some environmentalists are all for it…seems like if it does go through, NJT will experience a LOT of growth…how will they, or can they, handle such an increase of up to 50,000 more users?

  by pdman
 
Transportation economists have always shaken their heads at the discount pricing for commuter fares. When you have equipment and crews that are often used only two hours in the morning and two hours at end of the day, that is not the type of traffic that you offer a discount to. Instead, all these years, that should have been the traffic that you charged higher fares for in order to cover the under utilized assets. Some railroads even indicated such when back around 1900 they added the third and fourth tracks primarily for morning and evening commuter traffic.

Commuter fares: instead it became an enticement to lure people based on the rationale of capturing volume flows of cash. In the end, this really does not make sense.

I remember visiting the transit authorities in San Francisco in the late 1980s. They told of commuter bus drivers in Marin County driving a bus in in the morning and out in the evening. They parked the bus for the day. They were paid $30,000 a year. Most wore suits, because they worked in the stock exchange district during the day. For them it was a paid commute and free parking. Logic for them, but for no one else.

  by finsuburbia
 
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at and how it directly relates to congestion pricing in NYC.

NJT already has higher peak fare pricing. Monthly passes may or may not sense for the railroad economically, but they certainly make sense from a public policy perspective.

One the reasons why mass transit has a difficult time competing with a private automobile is that while overall using mass transit is cheaper than owning a car, once you have purchased a car, the marginal cost of each trip is much much less in a car. This is because most of the costs for a car (car payments, insurance, etc.) are sunk costs and have no bearing on your decision to choose to drive or not.

What monthly passes do is that they make all the costs sunk and the marginal cost for each trip zero. That will make mass transit a much more attractive option over driving. If you public policy is to encourage transit over driving, then it makes perfect sense.

  by geoffand
 
This is a terrible, terrible article. I hate to even post it here since it does not even deserve to be read. However, it does show that at least some reporters, however NIMBYfied they may be, are still reporting on the subject:
Bergen Record wrote:Congestion Plan painful for N.J.

Sunday, September 2, 2007

By TOM DAVIS
STAFF WRITER

New York City's plan to charge motorists $8 a day to drive into most of Manhattan could force New Jersey to spend millions of dollars to upgrade the state's mass transit system, transportation officials and advocates say.

"All the riders would be challenged immediately," said Kris Kolluri, the state's transportation commissioner, who declined to put a dollar amount on the effects of what's been called "congestion pricing."
So the first part seems O.K., but when the reporter started quoting the Sierra Club (also known as BMW environmentalists and NIMBYs) and the NJ Chapter of the National Motorists Association (enough said) the article took an anti-mass transit nosedive.

The article ends with a fabulous demonstration of anti-mass transit sentiment:
But even with these improvements, NJ Transit would never be able to provide the traveler with the comforts of driving their own car and having the trunk space available for storing their belongings, Carrellas said. "When the motorists understand it, they won't like it," he said. "They're doing it because of emissions, but there's still going to be people driving in."

###

  by F40
 
The plan is not dead yet, at least according to the NY Times sometime this summer. I didn't get a chance to read the article, but in a nutshell, they reported that the plan is being revived in Albany with stipulations that if the congestion pricing does take effect, that mass transit fares have no fare increases.

  by finsuburbia
 
F40 wrote:The plan is not dead yet, at least according to the NY Times sometime this summer. I didn't get a chance to read the article, but in a nutshell, they reported that the plan is being revived in Albany with stipulations that if the congestion pricing does take effect, that mass transit fares have no fare increases.
Albany has been using it as a political circus. They eventually approved a panel to improve congestion which helped them win a $354 million grant from the feds to help implement pricing based congestion reduction. The grant pays for new buses and ferries as well as bus rapid transit to be implemented along with the plan.
northjerseybuff wrote:Anyone following the NYC congestion pricing story? In some recent articles, politicians are stating NJT is at capacity and can't accommodate more people. Some environmentalists are all for it…seems like if it does go through, NJT will experience a LOT of growth…how will they, or can they, handle such an increase of up to 50,000 more users?
AFAIK, no-one is estimating 50,000 more NJ commuters. The article geoffand cited quotes a 14,500 more train and bus riders initially. Kolluri estimates 10-11 new railcars and 50-60 new buses. Considering that NJT is currently in the process of receiving the Multi-Levels and is in the middle of a 1,000-plus new bus order…

Interestingly, in the article Codey is quoted as saying you can't take a train from West Orange to Matawan, which is true. However, you can take a jitney from West Orange to South Orange Station to Secaucus to Aberdeen-Matawan. The only problem as of now is that too many Midtown Directs skip Secaucus. Maybe Codey could be productive and convince NJT to have more MD trains to stop in Secaucus for his constituents.

  by Irish Chieftain
 
Why the focus on West Orange? You can't take a train to West Orange, period. You can't take a train to places like Irvington either, but that's not the point.

As for more Midtown Directs stopping at Secaucus, I do not see the point. Solely for the rare person that needs to get from the Oranges to Matawan? Monthly pass holders IIRC can use the Newark LR to get from Broad Street Station to Penn Station within Newark; it's a three-seat ride, but reliable enough; certainly more reliable than having to travel in the other direction at Secaucus.
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