New plan for Buffalo Central Terminal redevelopment

Neighborhood aside, theres' other problems there. The building is surrounded on 2 sides by active rail yards & main lines. Thats a lot of noise, diesel fumes, & unappealing landscape for any sort of hotel or apartment residents. Another difficulty to redevelopment is the lack of direct access to the thruway. One more issue is that BCT doesn't stand downtown or in the suburbs. Either one of those two locations bring with it a HUGE advantage. Comparable projects would be the Larkin Co & other nearby factory buildings rebuilt into the modern commercial/residential strip it is becoming today just off the Downtown business distruict, & the Appletree Buisness Park remade from the old Como Mall in suburban Cheektowoga. Lastly, any large scale redevelopment that I've ever seen, shy of Ellis Island, usually started with a solid building to begin with. Time has been hard on BCT. The vandalism, thievery, & harsh weather have deteriorated that building to an archeological dig like the Great Pyramids of Giza. The building vaguely looks like an old train station, but how much farther can it go to rot until it needs to come down? How close are we to a tipping point there? Or did we already go past it years ago? If you look at Ken Kramer's photo book he did on BCT, that place was pretty solid into the late 80's/early 90's. It fell hard since then & I'm not so sure theres' even anything left to salvage at this point. Look around, that building is literally & figuratively a shell of its' former self. I really wish the BCTRC was formed in the late 70's & not so much later. I wish the will to preserve this once beautiful, & truly historic structure had been fortified before it was already too late. To me, at this time, it seems hopelss.

The building is surrounded on 2 sides by active rail yards & main lines.

I'm curious, what 2 rail yards are those?

Thats a lot of noise, diesel fumes, & unappealing landscape for any sort of hotel or apartment residents.

I don't believe diesel fumes from a passing train would cause anyone any harm. Especially when it's roughly 230' from the 10th floor to the belt line and nearly 1000' from the tower to the CSX main. You're in more danger of inhaling fumes from an idling engine sitting on a bench at the Amtrak station in Depew. And as for the "landscaping" the CTRC has kept the grass cut for the most part and re-planted and spruced up the traffic circle at Paderewski & Memorial Drive. If the buildings fully developed, I'm sure they'll take the time to plant a few flowers.

Another difficulty to redevelopment is the lack of direct access to the thruway.

The nearest thruway entrance is only a mile and a half away.

One more issue is that BCT doesn't stand downtown or in the suburbs. Either one of those two locations bring with it a HUGE advantage.

It has to be one of those options? An advantage it would be YES, but it doesn't have to be one or the other to be successful.

Comparable projects would be the Larkin Co & other nearby factory buildings rebuilt into the modern commercial/residential strip it is becoming today just off the Downtown business distruict, & the Appletree Buisness Park remade from the old Como Mall in suburban Cheektowaga.

And what did the Appletree Business Park start out as? A mall, yes. It too was redeveloped for a new use. Same as the Larkinville. From the beginnings of a soap company. To an updated multi use facility with numerous small & large businesses. But this renovation didn't happen overnight. How many years did it?

The building vaguely looks like an old train station, but how much farther can it go to rot until it needs to come down?

So the words NEW YORK CENTRAL RAILROAD on 4 exterior canopies don't give you the idea that this building was a train station? And as for the "rot". What are you specifically referring too? Some broken bricks and boarded up windows? All superficial things that can easily be fixed.

How close are we to a tipping point there? Or did we already go past it years ago?

Now remember that most of the major damage to the building occurred between 1986 and 1997. And yet still all the structural steel is still in near perfect shape. This building was BUILT TO LAST. It would easily stand the test of time by itself for another 80some years. That doesn't mean we leave it alone and wait for it to happen.

If you look at Ken Kramer's photo book he did on BCT, that place was pretty solid into the late 80's/early 90's. It fell hard since then & I'm not so sure theirs' even anything left to salvage at this point. Look around, that building is literally & figuratively a shell of its' former self.

True. But from a contractors point of view it makes it easier to update the electrical, HVAC, plumbing and other amenities.

I really wish the CTRC was formed in the late 70's & not so much later. I wish the will to preserve this once beautiful, & truly historic structure had been fortified before it was already too late. To me, at this time, it seems hopeless.

Well the building was still in use in the late 70's and early 80's, so a preservation coalition wouldn't have made much sense. What the CTRC is doing now is turning back the hands of time. There cleaning up the building and slowly restoring it back to it's former glory. The goal is that they somebody takes an interest and fully renovates and restores the building. And I for one am still staying hopeful. The project only becomes hopeless once everyone has truly stopped caring, and I feel that day will never come.

Terminal, I know you're very optimistic here, but I wanted to mention just one item on your list, and see how much of a concern it is.

You mention that the Thruway is only "a mile and a half away." This alone makes the whole thing a non-starter. If you're not looking at this objectively, it's hard to take the rest of the post seriously.

"A mile and a half" through an urban war zone is a long way. Now, that stuff doesn't bother me. I drive a Suburban that I will sacrifice for my safety, I graduated from college in Buffalo and lived there for a decade, and so on. I'm not worried. But I am not the target audience here, either for living or for visiting. The out-of-towners and suburban types are who they want to go in there, and if there is not a direct line to wherever, this is done before it begins.

I'd even say that completely rehabbing one of the feeder avenues nearby so that it was more appealing and in great shape might be enough. Rehab that "mile and a half" and you might be in business. But no private company is going to do that.

The rest of the post is dewy-eyed optimism, as well, but that particular "mile and a half" needed to be examined.

Dave Becker

I love how you're all suddenly experts in building/housing/urban/suburban development. Have any of you ever done it? I'm not saying I have either, but it's akin to me saying "You know what, I don't care what everyone else thinks. The digital cabs in locomotives nowadays are a total waste of money, I hate them and they serve no purpose. They should just destroy all locos with these installed."

Opinions are opinions. Just because someone's views don't match yours, that somehow means they deserve to be berated and treated like they're not a person? I could draw some pretty major parallels with some other situations but don't want to venture into the realm of things which are not allowed on the site.

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Dave Becker

terminalfanatic wrote:

The building is surrounded on 2 sides by active rail yards & main lines.

I'm curious, what 2 rail yards are those?

Frontier Yard borders BCT to the east and south. Given the squawking upscale and middle class NIMBYs have made about crossing noise in Hamburg, it seems doubtful they would find BCT's location appealing.

Pablo - "Dewy eyed optimism". Quote of the day. Just great, a perfect descriptor.

Matt - The fanatic didn't even read what I wrote. If you look at what I said, I never even mentioned 2 railyards, but whatever. It's all nonsense & jibberish anyway.

pablo wrote:"A mile and a half" through an urban war zone is a long way. Now, that stuff doesn't bother me. I drive a Suburban that I will sacrifice for my safety, I graduated from college in Buffalo and lived there for a decade, and so on. I'm not worried. But I am not the target audience here, either for living or for visiting. The out-of-towners and suburban types are who they want to go in there, and if there is not a direct line to wherever, this is done before it begins.

Agreed. The Midtown redevelopment in Rochester is in close proximity to a couple of exit ramps to I-490. The waterfront redevelopment in Buffalo has easy access to both I-190 and State Route 5. A lack of a ramp to the expressway is another obstacle to attracting potential tenants to BCT.

Railroaded wrote:Matt - The fanatic didn't even read what I wrote. If you look at what I said, I never even mentioned 2 railyards, but whatever. It's all nonsense & jibberish anyway.

Good point!

If a magic wand was somehow waved and the terminal could be all rehabbed with new plumbing, electric, walls inside, windows, roof redone, landscape and everything needed to allow a turnkey hotel and retail operation at no cost......would there be enough traffic in the place to provide enough revenue just to pay the utilities (massive heating costs) and maintenance ? I doubt it. The surrounding neighborhood may be doing less in the way of crime, maybe not but it is becoming vacant, largely depopulated. Crime aside, the surrounding area is a depressing dump that few people care to bother with. A mile and a half from the Thruway up Broadway with all the traffic lights is not what most people consider close and convenient. If the area for 10 blocks around were bulldozed so one doesn't have to look at all the vacant rot and burned out dumps, if Broadway was redone with minimal lights and intersections to allow 5 minute or less seamless connection to the Thruway and if Buffalo had the kind of population and economic growth to justify the huge expense you might have a prayer to see the terminal rehabbed. The cost of reroofing that building alone has to be astronomical, the heating bills have to be staggering with the high cielings and vast open space.

As I've stated in the past, the BCT is going to have a tough time due to its surroundings. But the Buffalo news has recently published an article that could prove me wrong over a period of time. Its a tiny little drop in a large area.....but maybe? Its the only positive thing that I've seen in that immediate area in a long time.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/ ... e-20151212" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Larkin was a great redevelopement. But I wonder what will happen if Key Bank buys First Niagara and pulls everything out of Larkin. Big set back.

There is an interesting thread which follows Harry Stinson's career after he separated from the One King West project in Toronto on the Urban Toronto board.
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ha ... ead.17179/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

colorado wrote:If a magic wand was somehow waved and the terminal could be all rehabbed with new plumbing, electric, walls inside, windows, roof redone, landscape and everything needed to allow a turnkey hotel and retail operation at no cost......would there be enough traffic in the place to provide enough revenue just to pay the utilities (massive heating costs) and maintenance ? I doubt it.

This is a railroad discussion board, I'm only an amateur architecture enthusiast, but I imagine that a developer wouldn't make an investment in money if he didn't think the project was going to bring people in. Regarding "traffic," all the owner of a building cares about is occupancy. Leases and rentals. You get that building to fill up with tenants. Perhaps the ground flood becomes home to some commercial establishment like a restaurant or something. The tenant pays rent, it's up to the tenant to encourage traffic to his business.

BCT is a project worthy of consideration, and I believe that the right private investor will come along some day.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:
BCT is a project worthy of consideration, and I believe that the right private investor will come along some day.

-otto-

I really hope you're right, Otto. I'm not going to get into the rest of it, but as far as preserving what I think is one of the
most gorgeous pieces of railroad architecture, that would be perfect.

Charlie

Interesting discussion - I am not a developer but as an architect with 20 years experience, don't think it completely unreasonable for something exceptional to happen to this building.

As a former student at UB, graduated 1987, I watched the steel mills close and have seen the decline. I keep my eye on Buffalo and with respect to construction and redevelopment, recent activities (past 5 years), when compared to the state of the place in '87, are akin to pulling rabbit out of a hat.

Though Central Terminal may feel hopeless, I don't think it's fate must be the wrecking ball. The right combination of investors, users and community participation could pull a rabbit out of the hat. I am thinking of something like a collaboration between business and a group like Artspace (http://www.artspace.org/our-places/arts ... group_area" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Artspace invests in redevelopment of existing buildings and spaces as place for art making and artist residences. Artspace's development cost for the existing Buffalo project is on the order of $17.6 million - not an insignificant amount of $$.

One concept for holistic redevelopment package might focus on the Terminal as an artists workshop and residential development + transit node + commercial node . Terminal could function as a commercial node with grocery, restaurants, convenience stores etc. As a transit node, it would have dedicated and frequent bus service to other areas of the city and possibly also a rail station. Public Funds may have to be spent on upgrading streets/street lighting, security and dedicated bus service to subway, etc.

As a resident of the San Francisco bay area, I can tell you that artists are on the losing end of the bay area economic scale and that places like Buffalo, with urban ambience and inexpensive space, are a great draw. The trend in the Bay Area is for artists to move into a neighborhood, rehab it and then get squeezed out as the neighborhood gentrifies around them. Similar things happen in NYC (Brooklyn). Don't know why, with the right set of resources and commitments, this couldn't happen at the terminal

And yes it requires public money - big projects don't happen without some form of government support - consider land grant colleges, public universities, interstate highway system, Clinton's ditch, the Panama Canal and, to bring it back to rail, the transcontinental railroad and opening of the West.