Hampton Roads/Norfolk/Newport News NE Regional Service

Some more details on the upcoming service to Norfolk:http://hamptonroads.com/2011/10/norfolk ... y-trips-dc

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Service will start with one departing and one arriving train daily. The morning departure is set for around 5 a.m., with service to Richmond by 7 a.m. and Washington by 9 a.m. A train will depart Washington around 3 p.m., arriving in Norfolk by 7 p.m.
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Officials plan to build service to three daily roundtrips.
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While work is already under way on the tracks and the platform, construction on the station is set to begin this winter.

I hope they can adjust the Norfolk departure time to just a bit later--5:00 is awfully early. And maybe Amtrak can add some bleacher seats to the planned station tower (see map at bottom of article).

About 44,000 residents from South Hampton Roads travel to Newport News each year to catch a train. Amtrak officials have told the city they expect about 67,000 customers each year to use the Norfolk service, or close to 200 passengers a day. The train will consist of eight passenger cars, each with 72 seats, and a diesel locomotive engine for a total capacity of 576 passengers. The train set will be 1,000 feet long.

Why does Amtrak want almost three times the capacity for the train than projected ridership? Seems to me that 3 cars capable of holding 216 passengers should be enough to handle 200 average. Add a fourth coach for really good days, not use eight coaches every day.
I assume there must be both a food service car and baggage car too, because 85 feet x 8 = 680 feet, adding a cafe car and baggage car brings the total to 850 feet. Although I don't recall any locomotive being more than 150 feet in length. Maybe in the future?

I'm pretty sure that the train is going to be a regular NEC train, they're just going to be extending it to Nofolk, hence why it's 8 cars.

That makes sense if that's the case. Do all Regional NEC trains have 8 coach cars today?

electricron wrote:Why does Amtrak want almost three times the capacity for the train than projected ridership? Seems to me that 3 cars capable of holding 216 passengers should be enough to handle 200 average. Add a fourth coach for really good days, not use eight coaches every day.
I assume there must be both a food service car and baggage car too, because 85 feet x 8 = 680 feet, adding a cafe car and baggage car brings the total to 850 feet. Although I don't recall any locomotive being more than 150 feet in length. Maybe in the future?

The train will continue from Washington to Boston, so the 8-car set could be for the peak segment Metropark to NYP. But since they would be switching locomotives in Washington, why not add 4 cars there with the new locomotive?

I suppose a better answer would be that Amtrak was low by a factor of 3 when estimating the ridership between Lynchburg and Washington. They were also low by a factor of 3 when estimating ridership on the bus from Roanoke to Lynchburg. In Virginia lately, the estimates haven't even been close. If they plan a train with a capacity three times the projected ridership between Norfolk and Washington, they might get it just about right.

As for the clock tower, if the train is going to leave before sunrise and arrive after sunset, the clock should have a lighted dial.

electricron wrote:

hi55us wrote:I'm pretty sure that the train is going to be a regular NEC train, they're just going to be extending it to Nofolk, hence why it's 8 cars.

That makes sense if that's the case. Do all Regional NEC trains have 8 coach cars today?

I suspect the reporter got a little mixed up on the consist. The typical NEC Regional is a 60 seat business class car, one cafe car, and 6 or 7 coach cars the last several Regionals I was on. No baggage cars.

As for the predicted ridership, if they can start the service off with a better morning departure time, more suitable for a wider ridership base, the prediction will be way low. The really early start time by extending the 7 AM Regional departing Richmond south to Norfolk is aimed at a specific part of the market, military personnel and defense contractors heading to DC on business, at the disadvantage of everyone else who don't want to get up at 3 or 4 AM. They should make the first daily train depart Norfolk at a reasonable early-mid morning hour. Make the 5 to 5:30 AM departure the 2nd or 3rd daily train service to be added later.

jstolberg wrote:I suppose a better answer would be that Amtrak was low by a factor of 3 when estimating the ridership between Lynchburg and Washington. They were also low by a factor of 3 when estimating ridership on the bus from Roanoke to Lynchburg. In Virginia lately, the estimates haven't even been close. If they plan a train with a capacity three times the projected ridership between Norfolk and Washington, they might get it just about right.

As for the clock tower, if the train is going to leave before sunrise and arrive after sunset, the clock should have a lighted dial.

Excellent idea on the clock tower--I'd even steal from Portland and add a "Go By Train" neon sign.

On the ridership projections, better to underpromise and overdeliver than vice versa. When/if there are three trains to Norfolk, combined with the Newport News trains, there will be a good level of service from DC and Richmond to Tidewater. This should produce high ridership.

One question--does anyone know/recall anything about intermediate stops between Norfolk and Petersburg? Suffolk is the most logical candidate. There probably should be one other stop between Suffolk and Petersburg, but there's no place of any size. I guess either Wakefield or Waverly would be ok distance-wise, but they're quite small.

Very true, first impressions are important.

If you over deliver, you can always scale back, but if you under deliver and alienate customers, its hard to recover from that.

Station Aficionado wrote: On the ridership projections, better to underpromise and overdeliver than vice versa. When/if there are three trains to Norfolk, combined with the Newport News trains, there will be a good level of service from DC and Richmond to Tidewater. This should produce high ridership.

One question--does anyone know/recall anything about intermediate stops between Norfolk and Petersburg? Suffolk is the most logical candidate. There probably should be one other stop between Suffolk and Petersburg, but there's no place of any size. I guess either Wakefield or Waverly would be ok distance-wise, but they're quite small.

The planning documents for the Norfolk extension show a proposed Bowers Hill station in Chesapeake. That is the only planned station between Norfolk and Petersburg. I don't see specifics on the Bowers Hill station, so the station may still be in the planning stages. Other than Suffolk itself, I don't see any logical place for a station stop between Suffolk and Petersburg. A long stretch of lightly populated territory.

The 2009 EIS and planning documents for the two routes - north and south of the river - can be found at the Richmond/Hampton Roads Passenger rail website http://www.rich2hrrail.info/index.html.

At AAPRCO's recent convention in Kansas City, Amtrak officials indicated they would handle PVs on the train between Washington and Norfolk in both directions, and provide occupied PV parking at their facility in Norfolk.

I think I will take MOUNT VERNON for a visit to Norfolk after the service commences. I have not ridden on the former N&W mainline between Norfolk and Petersburg since about 1977.

Wonder of wonders, a rail project ahead of schedule:http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/norfolk ... n-end-year

Amtrak passenger trains between Norfolk and Richmond and beyond will begin nearly a year early, by Dec. 31, Gov. Bob McDonnell announced Wednesday.

Service wasn’t expected to launch until October 2013, but work to make Norfolk Southern and CSX freight tracks ready for passenger rail has progressed faster than expected, a state spokeswoman said.

Station Aficionado wrote:Wonder of wonders, a rail project ahead of schedule:http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/norfolk ... n-end-year

Amtrak passenger trains between Norfolk and Richmond and beyond will begin nearly a year early, by Dec. 31, Gov. Bob McDonnell announced Wednesday.

Service wasn’t expected to launch until October 2013, but work to make Norfolk Southern and CSX freight tracks ready for passenger rail has progressed faster than expected, a state spokeswoman said.

That may be more than a wonder of wonders! Miracle, perhaps? On the other hand, the project construction schedule may have been seriously padded because of unknowns and a very conservative estimate. If the track and station work is getting done that far ahead of the original schedule, that would also suggest it is coming in comfortably under budget. Getting it done more quickly means fewer months of overhead costs and fewer months to burn the funding. If there is funding left over, either put it towards track improvements in Richmond or to get started on extending service to Roanoke.

I'd personally vote to put any leftover money toward an Acca bypass and rebuilding the Bellewood Subdivision to get Amtrak off the freight bypass around Richmond and onto the direct line to the south.

Back to Norfolk and the Tidewater generally, IIRC, the Commonwealth's eventual goal is three trains on each side of the James (i.e., three to Newport News and three to Norfolk). It appears by the year, we'll be halfway there with two to NNS and one to ORF--assuming Amtrak used the same unfortunate code for Norfolk). I think it would be a good idea to establish Thruway service to RVR to cover some or all of the other frequencies. The service pattern could thus be established now, with later conversion of the bus frequencies to rail.

Any updates on Roanoke? Amtrak should put the Roanoke-LYH buses into Arrow as a Thruway Service.

Unfortunately, the project is $11 million over budget. Virginia is finding the money by delaying a doubletrack project on the Crescent Corridor. It is not clear to me whether the extra expense is due to cost overruns or an increase in scope.