Hampton Roads/Norfolk/Newport News NE Regional Service

tfherb wrote:Virginia seems to have been left out of this round of HSR funding. D. Carlton is correct that the current plans don't address the funding source. North Carolina was much more favored in this round of funding. Part of the problem is that Virginia is very slow to commit to a stable source of funding for the state's portion of the HSR project. The current budget to be presented to the Legislature calls for borrowing all of $2.9B for all Virginia's badly needed transportation projects most of which of course is roads. I am not sure what portion of that is dedicated to rail but I think it may only include about $5M for some of the operating costs for 2 years for the currently Virginia supported trains, 174, 125 to Richmond and 151, 145 and 171 to Lynchburg. I have not heard whether the current budget addresses the Norfolk corridor sufficiently for the state to re-apply for federal HSR funds.

Virginia got $44.3 million for preliminary engineering and Tier II EIS or the DC to Richmond corridor and $1.2 million for PE for a new Appomattox River bridge and related track work from the FY2010 HSIPR grants. That is all Virginia applied for, as far as I know. I think the reason that Virginia did not get more in the original $8 billion of HSIPR stimulus grants beyond the $75 million for the 3rd track from Arkendale to Powell's creek is that the engineering design and detailed cost analysis work was not adequate to get funding at that time. North Carolina's engineering design studies were further along, so NC got the lion's share of the SE HSR funds. A $2.9 million engineering study for replacing the Long Bridge across the Potomac was also funded in the HSIPR stimulus grants, so there is allocated funding to cover the engineering design work for the entire DC Union Station to south of Richmond Main Street corridor.

The $44.3 million plus the $11 million of 20% Virginia matching funds covers a lot for engineering work. If they can do parts of the PE incrementally, Virginia might be able apply for specific improvement projects over the next few years for whatever federal funds for passenger rail are made available.

afiggatt wrote: Virginia got $44.3 million for preliminary engineering and Tier II EIS or the DC to Richmond corridor and $1.2 million for PE for a new Appomattox River bridge and related track work from the FY2010 HSIPR grants. That is all Virginia applied for, as far as I know. I think the reason that Virginia did not get more in the original $8 billion of HSIPR stimulus grants beyond the $75 million for the 3rd track from Arkendale to Powell's creek is that the engineering design and detailed cost analysis work was not adequate to get funding at that time. North Carolina's engineering design studies were further along, so NC got the lion's share of the SE HSR funds. A $2.9 million engineering study for replacing the Long Bridge across the Potomac was also funded in the HSIPR stimulus grants, so there is allocated funding to cover the engineering design work for the entire DC Union Station to south of Richmond Main Street corridor.

The $44.3 million plus the $11 million of 20% Virginia matching funds covers a lot for engineering work. If they can do parts of the PE incrementally, Virginia might be able apply for specific improvement projects over the next few years for whatever federal funds for passenger rail are made available.

Afiggat, you are right. I am aware of the $44.3M and I have posted about that in another thread. I drifted perilously close to a political statement in my post.

Afiggat, when you say refer to the engineering study for the

afiggatt wrote:Long Bridge across the Potomac

do you mean the bridge across the Appomattox near Petersburg that is a key component of the SEHSR plans? That bridge is supposed to get a 2nd track.

tfherb wrote:

afiggatt wrote: Virginia got $44.3 million for preliminary engineering and Tier II EIS or the DC to Richmond corridor and $1.2 million for PE for a new Appomattox River bridge and related track work from the FY2010 HSIPR grants. That is all Virginia applied for, as far as I know. I think the reason that Virginia did not get more in the original $8 billion of HSIPR stimulus grants beyond the $75 million for the 3rd track from Arkendale to Powell's creek is that the engineering design and detailed cost analysis work was not adequate to get funding at that time. North Carolina's engineering design studies were further along, so NC got the lion's share of the SE HSR funds. A $2.9 million engineering study for replacing the Long Bridge across the Potomac was also funded in the HSIPR stimulus grants, so there is allocated funding to cover the engineering design work for the entire DC Union Station to south of Richmond Main Street corridor.

The $44.3 million plus the $11 million of 20% Virginia matching funds covers a lot for engineering work. If they can do parts of the PE incrementally, Virginia might be able apply for specific improvement projects over the next few years for whatever federal funds for passenger rail are made available.

Afiggat, you are right. I am aware of the $44.3M and I have posted about that in another thread. I drifted perilously close to a political statement in my post.

Afiggat, when you say refer to the engineering study for the

afiggatt wrote:Long Bridge across the Potomac

do you mean the bridge across the Appomattox near Petersburg that is a key component of the SEHSR plans? That bridge is supposed to get a 2nd track.

The Long Bridge is the railroad bridge that carries the CSX tracks (and Amtrak and VRE) from DC across the Potomac to Virginia. The name dates back to the Civil War. The current version (which once had an operable swing span in the middle) is in need of replacement.

Station Afficionado wrote: As I understand it, the new Norfolk trains would use the N&W freight line that mostly by-passes Petersburg to the south, and would connect to CSX (ex-SAL) just north of Collier Yard (I don't think there ever was a connection from the N&W passenger line to the SAL). The only current connection for these lines that I see is in the SW quadrant. As you note, there would need to be a new NE quadrant connection for the Norfolk trains, but there appears (on the Google satellite photo) to be plenty of room to build such a connection, though given the difference in elevation between the lines, it won't come cheap. My apologies if I have mixed up the ACL and SAL lines.

Why couldn't the Norfolk train simply do a reverse move through the SW quadrant interchange to access the N&W? Amtrak does something similar every day with the Vermonter at Palmer, MA to move from the CSX (ex-B&A) Boston Line to the NECR (ex CV).

Ridgefielder wrote: Why couldn't the Norfolk train simply do a reverse move through the SW quadrant interchange to access the N&W? Amtrak does something similar every day with the Vermonter at Palmer, MA to move from the CSX (ex-B&A) Boston Line to the NECR (ex CV).

While such a move would be physically possible, I think you'd agree that the maneuver at Palmer is not the most efficent, either for timekeeping, or the use of locomotives and cab cars. Hence, at least in part, the desire of VT and MA to rebuild the Conn River line.

Ridgefielder wrote:Why couldn't the Norfolk train simply do a reverse move through the SW quadrant interchange to access the N&W? Amtrak does something similar every day with the Vermonter at Palmer, MA to move from the CSX (ex-B&A) Boston Line to the NECR (ex CV).

Down here there is the saying, "We don't care how y'all do it up north!" (Sorry, could not help that one.)

D.Carleton wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:Why couldn't the Norfolk train simply do a reverse move through the SW quadrant interchange to access the N&W? Amtrak does something similar every day with the Vermonter at Palmer, MA to move from the CSX (ex-B&A) Boston Line to the NECR (ex CV).

Down here there is the saying, "We don't care how y'all do it up north!" (Sorry, could not help that one.)

I thought the underlying theme of this thread, the Norfolk expansion, the Lynchburg expansion, etc., is that Virginia is seceding from the South and submitting its membership application to the Northeast Corridor. They do seem to care how it's done up north.

More seriously, the map that was posted up-thread today was very helpful. One question - does existing Florida service run south from Richmond via Petersburg? (Or to put the question more personally, was I on a portion of this routing when I took the train DC-Raleigh back in 1992?)

Yes, the FL (and NC) trains go via Petersburg, but their current route bypasses downtown Richmond to the west.

ryanch wrote:

D.Carleton wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:Why couldn't the Norfolk train simply do a reverse move through the SW quadrant interchange to access the N&W? Amtrak does something similar every day with the Vermonter at Palmer, MA to move from the CSX (ex-B&A) Boston Line to the NECR (ex CV).

Down here there is the saying, "We don't care how y'all do it up north!" (Sorry, could not help that one.)

I thought the underlying theme of this thread, the Norfolk expansion, the Lynchburg expansion, etc., is that Virginia is seceding from the South and submitting its membership application to the Northeast Corridor. They do seem to care how it's done up north.

More seriously, the map that was posted up-thread today was very helpful. One question - does existing Florida service run south from Richmond via Petersburg? (Or to put the question more personally, was I on a portion of this routing when I took the train DC-Raleigh back in 1992?)

Ah, but seriously folks, the reason the Vermonter dog-legs from Springfield to Palmer was due to the lack of freight traffic on Guilford’s line north of Springfield to justify keeping the track in reasonable enough shape for a slow passenger train. It was either drop the service or find an alternative. Now with government money and a new operating entity, Pan Am Southern, it appears this anomaly will soon be rectified.

Back to Virginia, the NS press release makes it clear they intend to build a new connection to facilitate movements from CSX. We shall have to see which plan they adopt. Remember, Virginia has taken a cue from North Carolina and is investing its own monies into this project instead of waiting for a handout from Washington.

And yes, if you have taken either Silver Service train or the Palmetto you have been through Petersburg, VA. If you did so way back in ‘92 then you traveled down the former ACL to Selma, NC and thence the North Carolina Railroad (operated by NS) to Raleigh. The former SAL south of Petersburg was abandoned in 1986.

I was able to learn from VRPT that the connection between CSX's North End Sub. and NS will be near Squerill Hill Rd in Collier. What I am not sure of is where abouts in Norfolk the station (near a ballpark) is. I was told that it was near the site of old Union Station. Never knew before there had been a "Union Station" in Norfolk.

Andy

twropr wrote:I was able to learn from VRPT that the connection between CSX's North End Sub. and NS will be near Squerill Hill Rd in Collier. What I am not sure of is where abouts in Norfolk the station (near a ballpark) is.

Here's a map: http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&q=h ... 4&t=h&z=16

Norfolk's Harbor Park area is bounded on its east by the rail line. The new light rail line (visible if you zoom in in Google Maps) crosses from downtown (on the east) over the rail tracks. While not a nice walk (under freeways) to downtown, it will be possible, along with easy freeway & light rail trip to local destinations.

D.Carleton wrote:Ah, but seriously folks, the reason the Vermonter dog-legs from Springfield to Palmer was due to the lack of freight traffic on Guilford’s line north of Springfield to justify keeping the track in reasonable enough shape for a slow passenger train. It was either drop the service or find an alternative. Now with government money and a new operating entity, Pan Am Southern, it appears this anomaly will soon be rectified.

Back to Virginia, the NS press release makes it clear they intend to build a new connection to facilitate movements from CSX. We shall have to see which plan they adopt. Remember, Virginia has taken a cue from North Carolina and is investing its own monies into this project instead of waiting for a handout from Washington.

Have to confess I didn't read the press release, but if NS is going to build the connection that's great.

One thing though-- not to go off-topic, but the Vermonter will still need to make a reverse move to get into or out of Springfield Union Station from the Conn River line (just like the Ambassador, the White Mountain Express and others did back in the days of joint NYNH&H/B&M service) since the station straddles the ex-Boston & Albany main line. They'll either have to cross the diamond and back down into the station, or make the station stop, then reverse onto the Conn River and cross the diamond.

Ridgefielder wrote:One thing though-- not to go off-topic, but the Vermonter will still need to make a reverse move to get into or out of Springfield Union Station from the Conn River line (just like the Ambassador, the White Mountain Express and others did back in the days of joint NYNH&H/B&M service) since the station straddles the ex-Boston & Albany main line. They'll either have to cross the diamond and back down into the station, or make the station stop, then reverse onto the Conn River and cross the diamond.

At least it's a short reverse move. They wouldn't need to tie up a cab car, or 2nd locomotive for this train as the conductor should be able to guide the engineer from the back of the consist when backing into the station OR onto the conn river line.

Mike77E9 wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote:One thing though-- not to go off-topic, but the Vermonter will still need to make a reverse move to get into or out of Springfield Union Station from the Conn River line (just like the Ambassador, the White Mountain Express and others did back in the days of joint NYNH&H/B&M service) since the station straddles the ex-Boston & Albany main line. They'll either have to cross the diamond and back down into the station, or make the station stop, then reverse onto the Conn River and cross the diamond.

At least it's a short reverse move. They wouldn't need to tie up a cab car, or 2nd locomotive for this train as the conductor should be able to guide the engineer from the back of the consist when backing into the station OR onto the conn river line.

Oh yes, agreed-- and that was why I thought a similar thing could be done at Petersburg.

What it probably boils down to is the time efficiency. Regardless of the distance of the reverse move it still takes time to do it and wait for clearance etc. etc. I would imagine that bypassing the city (even though I'm all for using Main Street) would be faster until a direct connection is made. The Vermonter honestly doesn't seem to be going anywhere in a hurry because that leg of the trip is pretty rural, but this train is to connect multiple large cities in a corridor, popping over to each one as quick as the Max Allowed Speed permits. That's just my look on it.

Davis