Hackettstown service?

madmage wrote: I commute daily from Hackettstown to Hoboken (and then on to 14th street, NYC via PATH) ...

Dude, you are hardcore - That is one long commute!

You'd be surprised how many people do use the service from Hackettstown

How many of them change at Dover though? The local train takes over two hours to get to Hoboken over a distance of about sixty miles, and the fastest express takes 1 hour 50 minutes.

I think the very long single track (from Morris Jct to Hackettstown is about 12 miles) is a major constraint to adding more service to Hackettstown.

A good number of the "west of Dover" riders ride "short" to points on mostly the M&E line. I suggest riding train 872 some morning to see how many people get on out west and get off at Morris Plains, Morristown, Convent and Madison. The seats these "short" riders use get refilled at stops further east (Chatham through Millburn), so this is a pretty "efficient" train.

It's even crazier during the school year, with all the private/prep school kids who ride to Denville (Morris Catholic), Convent and Summit.

gravelyfan wrote:I suggest riding train 872 some morning to see how many people get on out west and get off at Morris Plains, Morristown, Convent and Madison. The seats these "short" riders use get refilled at stops further east (Chatham through Millburn), so this is a pretty "efficient" train.

Except when they short us a car or two, which happens often. Then we stand and do the shuffle as folks who want to get off are blocked by folks standing in the aisle. This is especially problematic when the Prep school kids are in school. It would make sense to have 872 make a quick stop at Mountain Station instead of funneling the 200 Seton Hall Preps off train 872 at Summit and onto a local. Why NJT can't figure this out? I dunno. I also propose making a special "Prep school car" at the back of the train for the younger noisier brats.

872 cant stop at Mountain station because it is programed to operate on track 1 between Millburn and Green. They run that way to get around a local, usually passing them around, I believe, Highland Ave.

I'm sure schedules could be adjusted accordingly. If the local left 7 or 8 minutes earlier and did not stop at Mountain Station, then 872 could run the local track, and then pass the Essex local after East Orange Station (any switches in between Mountain and East Orange stations?). Stopping at Mountain Station would add a few minutes to 872's schedule prior to reaching East Orange, which would allow this to all work. Since 872 will save time at Summit, but lose time at Mountain, it should be able to stay on its current schedule for getting into Newark Broad and Hoboken. By not funneling those kids off at Summit, 872 will save dwell time at Summit, and the next Essex local will save considerably more time at both Summit and Mountain Station, thus allowing it to run a few minutes earlier and provide almost the same service that the earlier Essex local provides for folks wishing to get on after Summit and off at Mountain Station (since the earlier Essex Local would skip Mountain Station under this scenario.) This will also provide a faster commute for these kids, and more seats on the next Essex local. A car will need to be added to 872 to provide room for the extra passengers since the kids won't be getting off and providing seats for Summit/Short Hills/Millburn passengers. It also wouldn't be a bad idea to take Millburn off 872's schedule and let the next Essex Local (now running a few minutes earlier) pick these folks up. Millburn is just way to close to NYC for a Hackettstown "express" train to stop at. Millburnnites get acceptable train service even with the locals. Besides, there usually aren’t many seats left for Millburnites anyway.

Actually, I wouldn't mind forgetting about all the above and have 872 stop at Summit and then express to Newark Broad. Then, I wouldn't care so much about the Seton Hall kids since I would be getting to work in way less time. The only reason I suggested adjusting the schedule for the Seton Hall kids is since 872 already stopped at 2 stops after Summit, what was one more? The next Gladstone train could stop at Short Hills and Millburn, and then not stop at South Orange and Mountain Station (since South Orange already gets disgustingly great service with Essex locals). An Essex local could be added to the schedule to make up for the skip-stop service that is presently available. An extra local would allow 872 and the Gladstone train to both run express after Summit.

I don’t believe the current schedule is an acceptable service level for a Hackettstown train. NJT should try adjusting the schedule to allow for a real “express” train for Hackettstown service. The above is my meager non-transit-guru thoughts for decreasing ride time for West of Dover passengers and Gladstone passengers. If trains ran faster and with more frequency, there would be WAY more passengers than there are today.

Without looking at a timetable, I'll hold off on any comments on your suggestions about running the "essex" (?) local earlier.

I would point out that prior to the elimination of train 618 a few years ago, 872 did run express from Summit to Newark. I recall it was a 3, maybe 4 car train. It was not overrun with passengers because it was a few minutes quicker.

What has happened over time is that ridership to New York has grown so much that now, after 10 years of Midtown Direct, there are about 3.5 M&E riders to New York for every 1 M&E rider to Hoboken. Given that dynamic, and the practical limits on capacity due to various infrastructure issues (such as having just the 2 tracks Millburn=Summit) service to NY continues to expand, and service to Hoboken has been reduced. By the way, there are about 200 train movements a day between Millburn and Summit now, I'm guessing the DL&W never ran that many trains there (in part since they turned/yarded locals at South Orange).

I'm not saying its right or wrong, or fair or foul, but it is the simplest way to explain what has gone on over the last ten years. I don't know if there are any old NJT timetables online anywhere on a fan site, but take a look at the M&E schedules from the early 1990's. Trains like the Tom Taber express, the morning paired skip stop trains from Dover to Hoboken, that's all gone by the boards.

gravelyfan wrote:Without looking at a timetable, I'll hold off on any comments on your suggestions about running the "essex" (?) local earlier.

Again, I'm no transit guru. I'm sure (ok, not so sure but at least hope) NJT has a few scheduling gurus around who could make a way better schedule using simulation software which takes into account not only the most efficient scheduling of trains given resources, but also passenger trends such as the many Prep school kids. I was just toying with a few ideas to improve the schedule.

As for the "Essex", it was lack of a better term. Since the M&E stands for Morris and Essex, I consider anything West of Summit to be "Morris" and anything East to be "Essex" with Summit as a major transfer for both. Anything going to Peapack is just "Gladstone." Eventually I'd love to see "Morris" and "Gladstone" locals run express to Newark Broad from Summit and "Essex" locals make all stops from Summit to their destination. Actually, what would be really cool is a "Sussex/Warren/PA" local, making stops at Dover, Summit, Newark Broad, and Hoboken!

In summary, I think the current schedule configuration stinks and could be greatly revised to benefit all.. "Morris", "Essex", "Gladstone", and future (hopefully) "Sussex/Warren/PA" passengers. But for now, a quicker trip for Hackettstown and West folks would be nice.

I wrote NJT an email about asking if there was any hope in expanding service to Hackettstown as well as along the Waterfront Connection. I was given the answer that crew and equipment manipulations prevented either of these from happening.

Personally, I think that NJT needs to totally destroy thier current schedules and make new schedules based on today's trends.

The last major overhaul of the M&E schedule was when MidTOWN DIRECT started. Since its inaugration, it has been tweeked, and modified around itself. In english, if a train needed to be added, it was added based on the current schedule and slots, etc. Also, the NEC has had a lot of new services over the past 5 years with the added express trains. IMHO, NJT could actually run the system a lot more efficently if they tossed the current schedules and remade them from scratch. I think it would do away with a lot of deadhead trains as well.

Getting back to Hackettstown, NJT also said in their email to me that the reason for the large midday gap in service is to allow a local freight to service the tracks west of Mount Olive (M&M Mars and Macy's I presume). Funny, I thought NJT was a passenger railroad.

Getting back to Hackettstown, NJT also said in their email to me that the reason for the large midday gap in service is to allow a local freight to service the tracks west of Mount Olive (M&M Mars and Macy's I presume). Funny, I thought NJT was a passenger railroad

That doesn't mean that they stand in the way of commerce; this railroad has always been mixed-use traditionally. If NS negotiated that slot, then they get it. Of course, it would make more sense if the "old main" were double-tracked as in the past, so that no such "gap" would be necessary...

geoffand wrote:I'm sure schedules could be adjusted accordingly. If the local left 7 or 8 minutes earlier and did not stop at Mountain Station, then 872 could run the local track, and then pass the Essex local after East Orange Station (any switches in between Mountain and East Orange stations?).

No switches there. The only switches are at Summit, Millburn, Green (between East Orange and Newark), Roseville (between Green and Newark). So this plan is not feasible without building a new interlocking. Won't happen.

path18951 wrote: Personally, I think that NJT needs to totally destroy thier current schedules and make new schedules based on today's trends.

Any specific thoughts on what should be done? Thanks.
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NJT needs to hire a professional scheduler or buy software that schedules instead of manually adjusting schedules each time. That's the solution.

Jishnu wrote:

geoffand wrote:I'm sure schedules could be adjusted accordingly. If the local left 7 or 8 minutes earlier and did not stop at Mountain Station, then 872 could run the local track, and then pass the Essex local after East Orange Station (any switches in between Mountain and East Orange stations?).

No switches there. The only switches are at Summit, Millburn, Green (between East Orange and Newark), Roseville (between Green and Newark). So this plan is not feasible without building a new interlocking. Won't happen.

Well then build it! whoops... I used that word again... build. Millburn to Green is a long stretch on a passenger railroad to not have a switch, especially with 3 tracks. Having a switch in the middle would allow a skip-stop to get around an earlier skip-stop or a disabled train. It would also give the conductors a terrific workout by making them run up and down the train opening up and closing the hi-levels for each side as they switch tracks. Of course, I'd still rather see "Essex" locals make all stops and have "Morris" and "Gladstone" trains run express to Summit.

You think thats long between Green and Millburn? How about the 13 miles between Midway and Ham on the NEC - THATS a long stretch!