CityPaper's ideas to fix SEPTA

Yesterday's issue of CityPaper had a cover story entitled "Let's Go," where staff writers brainstormed 33 ideas that they think could improve the system. Some of the possible solutions they bring up make me wonder if they've been reading this forum -- rehabbing the Newtown branch, extending the subway to other parts of the city, having some sort of system that announces when the next subway car will get here.

Anyone have any particular thoughts on the ideas they put forward?

(link to CityPaper article)

Nice article. They have some good ideas (and some off the wall ones too), but if SEPTA did a quarter of what's on that list, most of us would be exstatic about riding.

To their credit, they generally stayed from the really ignorant things like "run more buses and trains late at night so people coming home from entertainment venues can use them." The people who promote ideas like that as the solution to the budget crisis 1) haven't read the budget and don't understand the problem, and 2) mistakenly assume everyone else in the region has the same travel patterns they do.

A few specific comments:

Reducing the number of bus and trolley stops has been recommended numerous times: it's a win-win because it speeds up service--you save operating expense because it takes fewer vehicle hours to run the service, and you gain revenue because the faster service is more attractive. The problem here is City Council, or more specifically, SEPTA's fear of being hauled before Council to be grandstanded against by Council members who hear more from the constituents who have to walk an extra block than from the greater number of constituents who will have a faster ride.

First class service on commuter rail is a good idea, but it won't pay for itself, and it probably won't be too advantageous on SEPTA because route lengths are so short. MARC experimented with some parlor car service in the 90s, which was much as the article suggested. They lost money in direct costs, but it raised the image of the railroad--more of an upscale mode of travel.

Signage and other passenger information has been the subject of a number of studies and recommendations going back at least 15 years. They're part and parcel of another point outsiders like DVARP and CAC and management audits have been making for years, that SEPTA has no way to identify and implement small capital investments that would have good payback in the operating budget. The capital budget is instead driven by big projects like the El reconstruction and ongoing infrastructure grab-bags.

DayPass has been a challenge from its inception (CAC pushed strongly for it in the late 80s when I was on it), but there is a significant faction within management that is dead set against it for a lot of reasons (mostly fear of fare evasion) and wants to see it fail. They succeded in killing off the original incarnation, but the proponents managed to get it back. In order to really grow it, we're gonna need the complete fare overhaul SEPTA studied and then killed a bunch of years ago. [blasphemy] short-term mentality again.

Bike lockers don't come anywhere near covering their capital cost, especially in a climate that is not conducive to bicycle commuting (and I'm saying this as one who often biked to the station when I worked downtown). Philadelphia is not California.

SEPTA's high base fare and high transfer charge are a political expediency, done to soak the occasional rider and to hold down increases in token and TransPass rates. The transfer gets very little attention from the people who get in front of TV cameras to b**** about SEPTA fares, so it's been increased much faster than other fares. But this ends up having unintended and harmful consequences, since it discourages people from transferring to the subway for trunk-hauls. Instead they stay on the long-haul bus routes, which do poorly for cost-recovery. SEPTA knows this (or should know it if they read our budget and fare testimony), but they as usual choose the easy way out.

I really don't understand why its ignorant to suggest later service. While i certainly concede that late-nite buses are in no way related to solving the current budget and management issues, the article was about improving the septa system. More than half the system shutting down at midnight (or earlier) doesn't serve customers all that well. Idea 10 actually did mention late night trains. Idea 24 mentions late trains as well.

[quote]
Idea #10: Keep the regional rails running later and more frequently.

While it is arguable that these lines are among the most efficiently run and organized routes SEPTA has, it's still unacceptable that people who live just outside the city limits (or even just within) don't have a safe, cheap, late-night ride home after a day or night patronizing the city's restaurants, theaters, concert venues and stores. On weekends, riders could spend up to $7 one way, wait up to one hour for the next train, and have to catch the last trip out around midnight. And what about shows at the Khyber or the North Star that wind down at 2 a.m.? --Lori Hill
[/quote]

Good Point. I'm not going to take a bus, train, or trolley into the city without a ride back. I've done it a few times, catching the last El (good luck with the Blue Owl Bus) to 69th st, then waiting half an hour for the last P&W. Not fun. If Patco can keep running all night every 40 minutes, why can't Septa do the same on it's rails.

If anyone has any thoughts on how i'm mucking up the quote brackets, i'd appreciate it

Its funny how SEPTA can run empty buses all night, but the trains all become pumpkins at midnight. At the very least, routes like Paoli, Trenton, 1 Chestnut Hill and Warminster should be kept going well into the night.

SEPTA also has to get off the kick of making bus routes "trunk routes" and make them feeders to regional rail. Of course this wouldn't help many city dwellers as a good chunk of the city's rail stations have been closed.
But instead of running the 22 or 55 all night, why not just have a shuttle from Frontier(use an El Dorado) that could collect and deposit people at places like Willow Grove where they could catch the R2 back to Fern Rock instead of taking the long route down 611.

While there may be some people who are downtown after hours for dining, there are much more people who are out in the burbs after hours coming home from a job. Someone needs to beat SEPTA over the head with the concept that buses should not be used for long hauls, period.

I'd like to see SEPTA try premium services on some routes, but it probablly would be too costly if they have to make modifications to car layouts, etc. Although if the sub'd it out to companies like Starbucks or WaWa, I can't see how they could lose. Do it as a pilot on the R5. Pipe dream, but maybe they could get a old cafe car from Amcrap and use that. Put it on the push pull trains only (yes that means you have to run them more often!). See how it does. If it does good, improve on it. Right now, regional rail is barely something more than a glorified bus route on rails. It would be nice to put some dignity back into the experience on the long routes (Doylestown, Trenton, Newark, Thorndale).

SEPTA also has to get off the kick of making bus routes "trunk routes" and make them feeders to regional rail. Of course this wouldn't help many city dwellers as a good chunk of the city's rail stations have been closed.

Excellent idea. Why isn't this being done now? Surely it must've come up.

I'd like to see SEPTA try premium services on some routes, but it probablly would be too costly if they have to make modifications to car layouts, etc.

Didn't the P&W have breakfast & cocktail service on their line at some point? How did that work?

AlexC wrote:

SEPTA also has to get off the kick of making bus routes "trunk routes" and make them feeders to regional rail. Of course this wouldn't help many city dwellers as a good chunk of the city's rail stations have been closed.

Excellent idea. Why isn't this being done now? Surely it must've come up.

It's the legacy of a historic antipathy to the railroad. The subway was City-owned, while the railroads were owned by the robber barons (*). Under SEPTA, there's no such excuse, and no excuse for not having a single-trip intermodal fare that would encourage such travel. In fact, as I explained elsewhere in the thread, SEPTA's fare structure does even more to discourage efficient use of the system--passengers can pay $1.30 to ride the 23 all the way down to Market St., or they can pay 1.90 to change to the subway at Erie--almost 50% more.

Chalk it to a lack of vision on SEPTA's part.

*--actually, "widows and orphans" may have been an equally valid description of the railroads' stockholders, but old stereotypes die hard.

Didn't the P&W have breakfast & cocktail service on their line at some point? How did that work?

It was on the Liberty Liners, pre-SEPTA. Good question how well that worked; you'd have to toss down a drink pretty quickly in order to finish it by Gulph Mills or whatever your stop was (I think the Liners were used only in express service). Probably would have made more sense on the North Shore Line where the cars originally ran.

Matt Mitchell
[dry Bombay martini, shaken, two twists please]

My dad always likes telling stories about the Liberty Liners, or "Electric Train" as he puts it. Told me If he went straight to the bar when he got on at 69th st, he'd have just enough time to finish a pony bottle of beer by the time he got to his stop at rosemont.

Still, on longer runs like trenton, or reading if that ever comes to pass, a cafe car or business class section, might work to boost interest. If the R3 ever gets extended maybe the could Get Wawa onboard for some sort of sponsorship or vendor deal. You know, ad campaign telling people about the new "Wawa Cafe Car" open during their commute.

I too was pleased to see how reasonable many of the CP proposals are, perhaps because as was suggested they parallel many of the ideas we've come up with over the years. You might say this one or that one is less practical or not cost-effective but most seemed to be pretty solidly based.

Unfortunately very few of the suggestions will ever come to pass because they require money, intelligence, initiative, intelligence, forethought, cooperation, intelligence, money, planning, intelligence, ...


Matt, you're correct that the Liberty Liners were used only on express runs. I remember the bar car too, although I was in my teens and couldn't sample any of the more potent wares (legally )

Matthew Mitchell wrote:The problem here is City Council, or more specifically, SEPTA's fear of being hauled before Council to be grandstanded against by Council members who hear more from the constituents who have to walk an extra block than from the greater number of constituents who will have a faster ride.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but Philly might not be the $*%&#& second fattest city in the country if people would walk an extra block or two to catch the bus or the trolley.

R3 Rider wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:The problem here is City Council, or more specifically, SEPTA's fear of being hauled before Council to be grandstanded against by Council members who hear more from the constituents who have to walk an extra block than from the greater number of constituents who will have a faster ride.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but Philly might not be the $*%&#& second fattest city in the country if people would walk an extra block or two to catch the bus or the trolley.

Amen! I was thinking the same thing. Didn't Mayor Street pledge to make the city thinner? How about stopping busses every other block, instead of every corner. Obviously, the elderly and handicapped would have to be accomodated, but there could be some sort of a campaign.
It probably wouldn't cost that much.

Although it's pretty obvious, I'll point out anyway that if bus stops were changed to every other block instead of every corner, the largest possible increase in walking distance for any rider would be 1/2 a block more, and that's only if you access the street the route follows from the exact midpoint between two stops. In most cases it would be less than a 1/2 block increase. Is that really so bad? No, of course not. The problem is that when you propose eliminating a stop, all the people who use it rally together and make a fuss, but no one rallies together for eliminating them because it's not as visible an issue that clearly affects a certain group of people. ::sigh:::

pennengineer wrote:Although it's pretty obvious, I'll point out anyway that if bus stops were changed to every other block instead of every corner, the largest possible increase in walking distance for any rider would be 1/2 a block more, and that's only if you access the street the route follows from the exact midpoint between two stops. In most cases it would be less than a 1/2 block increase. Is that really so bad? No, of course not. The problem is that when you propose eliminating a stop, all the people who use it rally together and make a fuss, but no one rallies together for eliminating them because it's not as visible an issue that clearly affects a certain group of people. ::sigh:::

Uh, the longest possible walk is a full block (e.g., somebody living at 4400 Baltimore Ave who has to walk to 43rd or 45th to catch the trolley). The average impact is 1/2 block.

But your interpretation of the politics is spot-on.

Sounds good to me. I use 43rd and Baltimore.

Sean@Temple

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

pennengineer wrote:Although it's pretty obvious, I'll point out anyway that if bus stops were changed to every other block instead of every corner, the largest possible increase in walking distance for any rider would be 1/2 a block more, and that's only if you access the street the route follows from the exact midpoint between two stops. In most cases it would be less than a 1/2 block increase. Is that really so bad? No, of course not. The problem is that when you propose eliminating a stop, all the people who use it rally together and make a fuss, but no one rallies together for eliminating them because it's not as visible an issue that clearly affects a certain group of people. ::sigh:::

Uh, the longest possible walk is a full block (e.g., somebody living at 4400 Baltimore Ave who has to walk to 43rd or 45th to catch the trolley). The average impact is 1/2 block.

But your interpretation of the politics is spot-on.

Notice that I said the longest possible increase in walking distance is 1/2 block more than they currently walk. If you want to get techical, the longest possible walk is currently:

Dwalk=pi*De+(1/2)*Lb

where Dwalk=maximum walking distance, De=diameter of the earth, and Lb=length of a block. If they only stopped every other block, the longest possible walk would become:

Dwalk=pi*De+1*Lb.

Taking the difference:

delta(Dwalk)=abs((pi*De+(1/2)*Lb)-(pi*De+1*Lb))=(1/2)*Lb

So my original post was correct