CityPaper's ideas to fix SEPTA

If people can't walk one block.....well, it doesn't need to be said. Anyway, I have an idea for Bucks Co and NE Phila that could save SEPTA a good amount of money and help increase service in the suburbs:

Combine the bus routes of major NE Phila lines and Bucks Co bus lines:

14 and 127
20 and 130
58 and 128
84 and 129
67 and 304

Not all buses would travel the full length of the route, but this consolidates buses (it gets rid of those horrible El dorados) and allows for less drivers. Plus, this increases bus serivce in Bucks Co which has the potential to really add good ridership to SEPTA. One of the marketing schemes could be the 20 as a way for Newtowners to get to NY by getting on the 20 and then connecting to the 14 to Trenton. And this would be better than cutting bus trips by 20% becuase this would cut down the frequency of the trips but also increase ridership. This can also be done on the Chester/Montgomery and Delaware Co lines as well.

What do ya think?

It's a good idea. It would sort of create several small bus parallels to the CCCT, only more useful as far as through trips, I would think. As I side, I would also say, just looking at the schedule, that the 127 could probably be done away with altogether, actually, and the slack taken up by the W. Trenton line and the 14. Does anyone know if the 127 gets enough other business to justify its existance? I'm not familiar with the area.

Bensalem SEPTA rider wrote:If people can't walk one block.....well, it doesn't need to be said. Anyway, I have an idea for Bucks Co and NE Phila that could save SEPTA a good amount of money and help increase service in the suburbs:

Combine the bus routes of major NE Phila lines and Bucks Co bus lines:

14 and 127
20 and 130
58 and 128
84 and 129
67 and 304

Not all buses would travel the full length of the route, but this consolidates buses (it gets rid of those horrible El dorados) and allows for less drivers. Plus, this increases bus serivce in Bucks Co which has the potential to really add good ridership to SEPTA. One of the marketing schemes could be the 20 as a way for Newtowners to get to NY by getting on the 20 and then connecting to the 14 to Trenton. And this would be better than cutting bus trips by 20% becuase this would cut down the frequency of the trips but also increase ridership. This can also be done on the Chester/Montgomery and Delaware Co lines as well.

What do ya think?

Actually, some combos would make sense, particularly if the 127/128/129 are broken into segments, and those segments would be combined into certain routes.

For example: combine the 14 with the ORIGINAL 127 line [along Trenton Rd, Woolston Rd, Pa. Ave and Bridge St..
2] Combine the 20 with the 128 as far as Levittown/Tullytown
3]Combine the 66 into the 129 and 304 as far as Bristol.

You still would need a "Cross County" line from Oxford Valley Mall to Bristol and Levittown, so maybe one or two loop routes could be established.

Finally, add a dedicated Newtown-Cornwells Heights express bus via I-95 to Rt. 1 and local to Newtown.

What do you think of that line combos?

You guys need a radical figure to come in and purge away staff like some exiled guerilla leader come home. Justice! Commenting and dreaming about expansions to wherever is cool but it's time for some action. It's time to land on the island and make your way towards storming the capitol. he he he he.

As a former resident I cringe whenever I hear about these clowns. Part of me makes me feel that there is some honesty in septa and it is not all their fault....BUT, but nobody in DC or wherever is going to care next time there is a problem or have the money to fix or build anything. Tough cookies.

So it is now time for them to move over and they can take a new path or bring the whole ship down. The problem is occuring with MUNI, CTA and others right now. And it is political, something that we can make reccomendations or dream ideas about cafe cars and trains to Reading, makes no bloody difference.

It is all worthless unless there is new leadership and structure. It will just rot away like an old railroad tie on the Newtown whatever. Unions, politics, PennDot, Center City commerical projects of grand design...they all tug but they do not evolve or fix anything in this system. Where are your transit centers (new ones)? Where have been your new starts?? Railroad opps a la 1928...what a joke.


1) Reprogram buses. Develop a Speed and Reliability program and reduce the fat of bus routes (e.g. Seattle) With so much rail, more buses should be integrated with rail routes. Buses should feed into nearby rail lines and not take a journey of 5 miles to Olney and 69th St. like they did in the 50's. Red Arrow and PRR are not still separate companies? Right?? Also, Septa over-captitalized their bus system during the last 10 years...this is the word out there in the transit circles. Too many buses. Do those artic buses really make a lot of sense in Philly with those small streets? They are half empty at least most of the time. What a joke.

2) Merge the agencies and have a regional body plan and engineer administer highway and transit programs and CONTRACT OUT bus and other operations. (e.g. Canada and Translink in Vancouver, BC). If Canada (more union friendly than the US) can do it, so can Philly.

3) Develop a funding mechanism for the orgnaization above. Carrot and stick approach.

4) Cut down rail lines and expand others. There is no need to spend 100 million dollars restoring some rail lines to capture a few hundred trips destined for the Center City business district. Other services like the R5 get some push pull coaches (nearly 20 years old now) but should get more attention or modernization. (e.g. Metro North).

Prune first and dream later and get politically vocal and active. I suggest the special ballot initiative...as the Emperor said in Star Wars "I'll make it legal." That is your only hope and it is what has worked elsewhere. Otherwise you have ZERO CONTROL.

Mdlbigcat wrote:

Bensalem SEPTA rider wrote:If people can't walk one block.....well, it doesn't need to be said. Anyway, I have an idea for Bucks Co and NE Phila that could save SEPTA a good amount of money and help increase service in the suburbs:

Combine the bus routes of major NE Phila lines and Bucks Co bus lines:

14 and 127
20 and 130
58 and 128
84 and 129
67 and 304

Not all buses would travel the full length of the route, but this consolidates buses (it gets rid of those horrible El dorados) and allows for less drivers. Plus, this increases bus serivce in Bucks Co which has the potential to really add good ridership to SEPTA. One of the marketing schemes could be the 20 as a way for Newtowners to get to NY by getting on the 20 and then connecting to the 14 to Trenton. And this would be better than cutting bus trips by 20% becuase this would cut down the frequency of the trips but also increase ridership. This can also be done on the Chester/Montgomery and Delaware Co lines as well.

What do ya think?

Actually, some combos would make sense, particularly if the 127/128/129 are broken into segments, and those segments would be combined into certain routes.

For example: combine the 14 with the ORIGINAL 127 line [along Trenton Rd, Woolston Rd, Pa. Ave and Bridge St..
2] Combine the 20 with the 128 as far as Levittown/Tullytown
3]Combine the 66 into the 129 and 304 as far as Bristol.

You still would need a "Cross County" line from Oxford Valley Mall to Bristol and Levittown, so maybe one or two loop routes could be established.

Finally, add a dedicated Newtown-Cornwells Heights express bus via I-95 to Rt. 1 and local to Newtown.

What do you think of that line combos?

I have ridden the 127 and while most of it's route through Bucks Co is barren, it does have good ridership at times. Also, this is the only real way to access much of Bucks Co. If you don't have a car or don't want to drive one, then this bus is your only lifeline to NY as many people do not have good access to the R3 or R7. There should be a way to catch a Midnight train out of Penn and still be able to hop a bus back into Bucks Co. Currently, if you don't get on an 6pm train, you're screwed unless you take a cab.

Like I said, not every 14 or 20 would go to Trenton or Newtown, respectivley. But it will better serve Bucks Co which as areas for SEPTA to grow. I'm sure there are plenty of Council Rock teens who would love to leave the beemers at home for a night out in Philly or NYC. Also, this helps in employers letting workers work longer, it attracts new jobs for the community and it really helps on the traffic front. Plus, in the long run, it saves SEPTA costs and rasies it's ridership. I see many 14's, 58's and 20's leave the city and suburbs empty, it doesn't have to be like that. I'm sure people can live with having 15 min headways instead of 10 anyway.

I'm from council rock, and this would be a godsend. My friends and I would use it al the time. I'd like to see it exended to Richboro or even New Hope.

FYI, I drive a 1986 Oldsmobile. Not everyone up here drives a Bimmer.

SCB2525 wrote:I'm from council rock, and this would be a godsend. My friends and I would use it al the time. I'd like to see it exended to Richboro or even New Hope.

FYI, I drive a 1986 Oldsmobile. Not everyone up here drives a Bimmer.

All you and your friends need is some paper, pens, and you moms and dads showing up at the meetings. You do know that the 130 goes there while your in school right? there is even some buses on Staurdays, but they only serve the College and Downtown.

Anyway, write letters and give lots and lots of E-mails.

It would never work, there realy is no market for it, especially just to goto the Franklin Mills Mall or Neshaminy Mall to transfer.

The only way such a service would be remotely sucessful:

1. Frequent service.
2. Direct to Center City or a free transfer to the FTC.
3. Park and Ride type stops.
4. Lots and lots of advertising (I didn't know those 300's route busses even existed, and even when I found out, the service was far to infrequent)

In other words, it won't happen. No one wants to ride a bus, its 'something city folk use'. The only real solution is Newtown re-activation and perhaps even a Warminster extension to Rusland, Wycombe, or even New Hope.

In other words, nothing will happen.

It doesn't even really matter to my friends or I, we're all off to college in 8 months anyway.

SCB2525 wrote:It would never work, there realy is no market for it, especially just to goto the Franklin Mills Mall or Neshaminy Mall to transfer.

The only way such a service would be remotely sucessful:

1. Frequent service.
2. Direct to Center City or a free transfer to the FTC.
3. Park and Ride type stops.
4. Lots and lots of advertising (I didn't know those 300's route busses even existed, and even when I found out, the service was far to infrequent)

In other words, it won't happen. No one wants to ride a bus, its 'something city folk use'. The only real solution is Newtown re-activation and perhaps even a Warminster extension to Rusland, Wycombe, or even New Hope.

In other words, nothing will happen.

It doesn't even really matter to my friends or I, we're all off to college in 8 months anyway.

Umm, you just said above my post that you would use it all the time? What's the real deal here? And I would have about Half hourly service with the first bus out of Newtown at 5AM and the last bus out of Frankford at about 2AM. The planned 20 route takes you all the way to Frankford where you could catch the El to Center City. And for NYC service, all you would need is base fare and a 60 cent transfer plus 50 cents for zonage to get to Trenton. And the last bus out of Trenton will be at 2AM and that will connect with the last bus out of Frankford going to Newtown.

We could use buses cut from other failing lines to run the frequent service.

We would use it all the time, but I can't speak for everyone up here. I'm almost certain, however, that it would be the exact opposite for everybody else in this area. And like I said, we won't be here in another year anyway, so my friends and I aren't the best gauge for ridership.

People here only use trains, at least as of now. Numerous times, I've heard "ya, we'll take the train down" But never ever have I heard "lets take the bus to the mall, transfer to another bus, and then take the El." I've actually tried this once, and we were waiting for a bus for over an hour that never showed. This really turned me off.

This is not to say this is impossible to change. Here are some other things I think could be done.

1. More stops, each one with either a shelter or a sign in addition to one of those boards with the schedule on it. If people see bus shelters or schedules on main roads, such as Second Street Pike or whichever, this may intrigue them into looking into it further.

2. As said before, more frequent service, with more busses to go along with the shelters, to show a presence.

3. Those hybrid busses. Having a 'clean' bus would go a long way to improving the image of busses in the suburbs.

Even so, I think the money would be better spent re-activating the Newtown line. It's just the better option.

The problem with SEPTA is that the management has no incentive to improve, and no one to hold them responsible for their actions. The board of directors is mostly made up of political appointees who have little interest in running a transit agency. I think the board should be made up of 5 members, one for each county, directly elected by voters of that county.

AlexC wrote:

SEPTA also has to get off the kick of making bus routes "trunk routes" and make them feeders to regional rail. Of course this wouldn't help many city dwellers as a good chunk of the city's rail stations have been closed.

Excellent idea. Why isn't this being done now? Surely it must've come up.

Welcome to Philadelphia, where if you try to change or reroute a bus route for the better, the riders cry foul. Unfortunately, as long as that minority cries about a reroute to their service, the use of certain bus routes as feeders will never happen.

There is also the "us vs. them" suburban vs. city mentality....some suburbanites have an aversion to sharing their trains (already crowded during rush hours) with "that city element of riders"....to put it politely. Prior to Railworks, I had a conversation with a few people who said they would be driving their cars into Center City during Railworks rather than deal with "riding the subway and have to worry about the criminal element"......

A skip-stop system WAS tried recently along the Route 10 subway-surface line. Over the objections of neighborhood riders, SEPTA eliminated stops along Lansdowne Avenue at 62nd Street, 58th Street, 55th Street, and a few stops along Lancaster Avenue.

The experiment died a quiet death. The eliminated stops did not speed up the ride, as the usual traffic obstacles (improperly parked cars, trucks making deliveries, and traffic lights) remained. Not only that, the displaced riders simply caused longer dwell times at the nearest adjacent stops.

The eliminated stops were quietly restored.

Silverliner II wrote:The experiment died a quiet death. The eliminated stops did not speed up the ride, as the usual traffic obstacles (improperly parked cars, trucks making deliveries, and traffic lights) remained. Not only that, the displaced riders simply caused longer dwell times at the nearest adjacent stops.

This may be true in an area that is congested, or has a lot of traffic lights. In less dense regions of the city, eliminating some stops would surely speed up trips. The bus stop I use on the 67 is at a street corner with no light or stop sign, and takes about 3 or 4 passengers all day. I'm glad that I have a bus stop close to my house, but I wouldn't mind walking another block for the sake of shaving a few minutes off my morning commute. And it is true that there would be some marginal health benefits to our overweight city's residents.

SilentCal wrote:

Silverliner II wrote:The experiment died a quiet death. The eliminated stops did not speed up the ride, as the usual traffic obstacles (improperly parked cars, trucks making deliveries, and traffic lights) remained. Not only that, the displaced riders simply caused longer dwell times at the nearest adjacent stops.

This may be true in an area that is congested, or has a lot of traffic lights. In less dense regions of the city, eliminating some stops would surely speed up trips. The bus stop I use on the 67 is at a street corner with no light or stop sign, and takes about 3 or 4 passengers all day. I'm glad that I have a bus stop close to my house, but I wouldn't mind walking another block for the sake of shaving a few minutes off my morning commute. And it is true that there would be some marginal health benefits to our overweight city's residents.

I agree....Route 10 was the wrong route to try that on without other measures like traffic light preemption, for example. And ironically enough, 58th and Lansdowne (which had been one of the discontinued stops) now has a traffic light instead of the stop sign on 58th that had been there for so long (Lansdowne traffic did not stop).

Now here is a good example of bus stops obscenely close to each other.

Until the late 1990's, riding southbound on Route 6, you had stops at Ogontz & Church, then Ogontz & Champlost.....with the bus having to make the left turn from the right lane onto Champlost at that point and then having a stop at 17th & Champlost.

Finally, in an act of common sense, SEPTA moved the southbound Ogontz & Champlost bus stop to the far side next to the corner store, so buses can make the left turn and THEN make the stop. To appease residents who hollered about now having to cross two sides of the intersection, they put an additional bus stop at the small side street a half-block south of Church.

But they did not eliminate the 17th & Champlost stop southbound. The distance between the 17th Street stop and the current Ogontz stop southbound is about 180 feet....or the length of 3 articulated buses.

It would drive me crazy as a former regular rider of that line to make the Champlost & Ogontz stop.....and then not even make it out of first gear before stopping for 17th Street.....those folks could walk to Ogontz quite easily.

The northbound 17th Street stop is fine to stay, as the walk on the northbound side is slightly longer because of the way Ogontz curves and the bus stop is positioned.....but 17th Street southbound really ought to go!