Amtrak Hiawatha Discussion: Chicago - Milwaukee and Possible Extensions

Gilbert B Norman wrote:I would presume Mr. Dunville is addressing Gallery cars configured with reclining seats and with appropriate pitch for a 1'45" journey. Lest we forget, the C&NW circa 1958 acquired a number of such for use on Chi-Northern Wisconsin trains, this was part of a "deal" that allowed them to discontinue passenger service over an array of routes. While the cars were designed with conversion to commuter seating, they were not so converted and remained in intercity service until "the end" on A-Day eve.

Amtrak subsequently acquired a number of these cars and assigned them to routes such as the Illinois Zephyr, the Chi-Valpo "Local" (whoops, The Calumet), and a Chi-Springfield train.

Lest we forget that these cars also saw service om the afore mentioned Hiawathas both as coaches and as Cab cars ( mixed in with amfleet... Ugly looking trains)

AMTK1007 wrote:Gallery Cars are less suitable for the trip to Milwaukee.. Metra cars have been leased in the past for Holiday ( read Thanksgiving) service and were not liked by the crews OR the passengers. A better idea might be for the Midwestern States ( Illinos, Michigan, Missouri, Wisconsin) to get together and purchase a fleet of California/Surfliner style cars.. and as part of that purchase invest in platform upgrades so that the train could use trainlined doors to speed loading and unloading...

In the Very Short term Wisdot/Idot need to look at securing funding to add a 3rd trainset and aditional frequencies during the construction

Firstly, I wouldn't be surprised if Amtrak specifies a Superliner-III fleet to look very similar to the California cars. No idea where the funding would come from, whether from the Federal government through appropriations, through an FRA grant of some sort, or through interstate agreement in the Midwest. They'd be much appreciated, both in long-distance service and in local.

I'm surprised that Wisconsin, Metra, CP Rail and Amtrak haven't hammered out an agreement to add another train between Milwaukee and Chicago. Then again, they also haven't restarted service to Madison from either Milwaukee or Chicago, so maybe Wisconsin's government is less keen on passenger rail than the previous one under Tommy Thompson.

State DOTs (at least in the midwest) don't seem to think as progressively as we would like them to. I was at a presentation by an unnamed (because I can't remember the name) IDOT official in Springfield a couple of months ago, at an American Planning Association conference. All he really talked about were road expansion and upgrade projects. I remember sitting there as he wrapped it up, thinking "wait, what about Amtrak and all those new trains and record ridership increases?" and evidently I wasn't the only one thinking that, because the first person to raise her hand had a question about high-speed rail and why more wasn't being done to get it running. I would say IDOT is still pretty conservative/wary when it comes to passenger rail, and this is the state with lots and lots of passenger trains. I can't imagine how low on the agenda it would be for a state like Wisconsin, where I can think of four passenger rail services: Empire Builder, Hiawatha Service, Kenosha Metra stop and the Kenosha Streetcar. The latter of which is on a much smaller scale and might not even "count."

It really does look like Wisconsin's governor issued a "Forget about rail" order. Tommy Thompson's government was acting as the "lead" on the Midwest High-Speed Rail project.... now nary a peep out of them.

It would be interesting to note that there is currently a lack of servicable equipment for added frequiencies. Adding any additional Hiawatha frequencies will require a 3rd set of equipment... and if you add a 3rd set, you are not going to add just one train...All parties are going to get all that they can out of that set of equipment.

As for a Superliner III fleet, that is indeed possible, however whether they come configured as the Super i and Super II fleet or as californina type cars ( then they wouldn't be superliners) remains to be seen

mtuandrew wrote:

AMTK1007 wrote:Gallery Cars are less suitable for the trip to Milwaukee.. Metra cars have been leased in the past for Holiday ( read Thanksgiving) service and were not liked by the crews OR the passengers. A better idea might be for the Midwestern States ( Illinos, Michigan, Missouri, Wisconsin) to get together and purchase a fleet of California/Surfliner style cars.. and as part of that purchase invest in platform upgrades so that the train could use trainlined doors to speed loading and unloading...

In the Very Short term Wisdot/Idot need to look at securing funding to add a 3rd trainset and aditional frequencies during the construction

Firstly, I wouldn't be surprised if Amtrak specifies a Superliner-III fleet to look very similar to the California cars. No idea where the funding would come from, whether from the Federal government through appropriations, through an FRA grant of some sort, or through interstate agreement in the Midwest. They'd be much appreciated, both in long-distance service and in local.

I'm surprised that Wisconsin, Metra, CP Rail and Amtrak haven't hammered out an agreement to add another train between Milwaukee and Chicago. Then again, they also haven't restarted service to Madison from either Milwaukee or Chicago, so maybe Wisconsin's government is less keen on passenger rail than the previous one under Tommy Thompson.

I appreciate the comment about our DOT's being old fashioned. I think there is some big underlying factors in this mentality. We are at the seat of the auto industry. We had the worst pre-Amtrak passenger trains - Rock Island and Penn Central's worst were in the midwest. No empire service here... Voters are also much more conservative here, which usually does not translate to support for mass transit projects. However, we have $4 gas today, and I bet $5 gas is just over the horizon. I think we have a summer of $5 gas, and we will get religion quite fast.

I think that's a bit unfair to Wisconsin (and WisDOT); Frank Busalacchi has been by far the most prominent state DOT secretary on passenger rail issues. The state approved $80M in bonding authority to serve as a state match for federal funds to develop 110mph rail in the Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison corridor (some of this money was used in the rehab of the Milwaukee station). They also committed extra funds last year to guarantee an extra coach on the Hiawathas. They might deserve some criticism for being too systematic in their approach (as opposed to the seat-of-the-pants expansion pursued by their neighbors in Illinois), and transit politics at the local level are a bit of a disaster, but I'd still consider them more progressive on rail than most states.

Tadman wrote:I appreciate the comment about our DOT's being old fashioned. I think there is some big underlying factors in this mentality. We are at the seat of the auto industry. We had the worst pre-Amtrak passenger trains - Rock Island and Penn Central's worst were in the midwest. No empire service here... Voters are also much more conservative here, which usually does not translate to support for mass transit projects. However, we have $4 gas today, and I bet $5 gas is just over the horizon. I think we have a summer of $5 gas, and we will get religion quite fast.

Voters in Wisconsin and Illinois are not generally regarded as "fiscally conservative". Wisconsin has some of the higher tax rates in the country but maybe where they differ is that they try to ensure that they are getting something for their money. In that respect, yes, it's probably much different than a state like New Jersey. Metra is quite well funded and is often looked at as the best-run commuter rail system in the country. Only the LIRR is bigger.

More to the point, unless you're specifically traveling between Chicago and Milwaukee, the frequency of service is irrelevant and the price of gasoline won't matter to Amtrak ridership.

I'm going to be participating in a long term planning session for transporation issues in Kenosha County, WI later this month. I want to push for adding an Amtrak station on the Hiawatha line in the Kenosha/Pleasant Prairie area. Perhaps some board correspondents can help me out with answers to the following questions so I can more intelligently push for this. I recognize some of this is more than "Kenosha County" issues, but improved service for Kenosha is improved service for all.

1. I know there is supposed to be a $250,000 set aside slated from the proposed local Native American casino for a station if the Kenosha casino ever gets built (which is looking less and less likely). Has any planning at either Amtrak or WisDoT been done for the station?

2. Why do the Hiawathas stop at Glenview? Is that a hangover from the Glenview Naval Air Station days? Didn't the Hiawathas stop at Golf? (I seem to remember putting my then girlfriend on the train at Golf some 30 years ago. Or maybe it was Morton Grove).

3. Would it make sense to run the Hiawathas to stop at Lake Forest (northernmost stop on Metra Fox Lake line before the branch splits off the Hiawatha route to Fox Lake) southbound immediately before the southbound Metra trains and immediately after Metra on the northbound runs? This way, one could combine Metra travel much more efficiently with Hiawathas for those with jobs/homes on the corridor.

4. I recognize that there is transit bus service to O'Hare from Glenview, but why not have Amtrak stop at Mayfair to make transferring to the CTA El's Blue Line (O'Hare-Downtown) very feasible? Of course, it would help if there was a dedcated pedestrian walkway or moving sidewalk system between the two - it's about 700 to 1000 feet between the stations.

5. Any current planning to increase service on the Hiawathas?

Any insights and opinions would be welcome.

Hello Mr. Herr; as I recall you were last around when John Stewart was the owner of this site.

Hello Mr. Herr; as I recall you were last around when John Stewart was the owner of this site.

I think some dinosaurs were still roaming around then too...good to see you around, Mr. Norman.

SHerr wrote:3. Would it make sense to run the Hiawathas to stop at Lake Forest (northernmost stop on Metra Fox Lake line before the branch splits off the Hiawatha route to Fox Lake) southbound immediately before the southbound Metra trains and immediately after Metra on the northbound runs? This way, one could combine Metra travel much more efficiently with Hiawathas for those with jobs/homes on the corridor.

Not a bad idea, you could essentially eliminate the stop at Glenview in lieu of this one. With current capacity though, this could be problematic during rush hours, but it could work for certain off-peak runs.

SHerr wrote:4. I recognize that there is transit bus service to O'Hare from Glenview, but why not have Amtrak stop at Mayfair to make transferring to the CTA El's Blue Line (O'Hare-Downtown) very feasible? Of course, it would help if there was a dedcated pedestrian walkway or moving sidewalk system between the two - it's about 700 to 1000 feet between the stations

That would be expensive, and difficult to build logistically, because you'd have to build the bridge over a both busy street (Montrose Ave.), then over the triple-tracked Metra's UP/NW line, and that could lead to a traffic nightmare during construction. No, I don't think there's a need for an Amtrak stop at Mayfair, passengers heading to O'hare from CUS would still be better off transferring to buses at Glenview, especially since the Blue line still has slow zones for significant stretches along the Kennedy Expy. (I-90/94). Also, Metra offers limited service to O'hare on its North Central route, but I think the depot is located near a parking lot, and you may need to ride a shuttle to the actual terminals...

I was thinking Mayfair might make more sense for O'Hare travelers from the north. A lot of people in southern Wisconsin still use O'Hare, even though the price differentials of O'Hare vs. Milwaukee seem to have been minimized. Sheer number of flights rules, apparently. From downtown Chicago, taking the Blue Line out to O'Hare is the only way to go.

There is a bus service from Milwaukee, Racine, and Kenosha to O'Hare and Midway, but it becomes extremely variable in time keeping during rush hours.

Hey everyone, so I took a daytrip to Chicago today from Milwaukee and had a great experience just as I have had in the past.

1. Both of the consists I rode on had 3 Horizons and 2 Amfleets and wow those Amfleets are nice! Despite being 30+ years old they're incredibly clean, modern feeling, and have a relaxing atmosphere. I felt like I was on the NEC for some reason, I'm not use to riding them in the Midwest.

2. There was a Cascades F40NPCU which I thought was neat to see. Very nice paint scheme.

3. Some of the track is incredibly rough however. Even with the doors closed it became incredibly loud inside.

4. Trains were on time which is great. (Well within 15 minutes)

5. Once we hit Metra territory there was a lot of stopping and starting going on. Has Amtrak considered adding another stop in Metra territory at a station such as Lake Forest? Especially with the new airport stop it seems like this could provide more ridership.

6. The train back was packed, some people had to stand or sit on the floor. A sixth car may soon be needed, I can remember the days when this was typically a three car consist. The Horizons should also be scrapped, I honestly can't stand them, haha. I know this isn't going to happen since they are relatively new but they just fail in comparison to the "modern" Amfleets.

7. The new Milwaukee station is magnificent! As an architecture student I really compliment the design!

So thanks for reading this mini-trip report. The Hiawatha really seems to be doing well and is very-well patronized which is great given the economy.

Thanks for the observations, when I move back to Chicago the train is on my list of "day-trips" to ride.