Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

also much less loud.

SouthernRailway wrote:

leviramsey wrote:
Regarding consumer products (arguably not environmental) and private construction, the EU is generally much stricter than the US (things like what can legally be called "chocolate" notwithstanding). But when it comes to state action, the general attitude is that most if not all laws mean whatever the legislature (and thus, effectively, the governing coalition, and thus, effectively what the Prime Minister and his cabinet) says they mean at that moment (party discipline is generally much stronger in the EU than in the US). If the Prime Minister and his cabinet want a high-speed rail line built through a particular area, it will get built in a particular area regardless of its environmental or other impacts, because the law authorizing it will basically be interpreted as superseding any prior law to the contrary.

The UK and some continental European countries do have many fewer layers of government, and fewer branches of government and thus fewer checks and balances, which together allow faster decisionmaking.

In the US, if a big project like Gateway needs to get done, the Federal government (which can be fighting against itself, with Congress vs. Dear Leader) has to make a decision, and then it has to coordinate with the states. In this situation, that's already multiple bodies fighting against each other.

In the UK and other countries with a parliamentary system and no relevant federalism, the Prime Minister and whatever his party want, go. They have to follow existing laws for environmental reviews and the like or change them, but they don't have to fight with an executive branch (since the king/queen or ceremonial president just rubber-stamp whatever the Prime Minister and legislature want) or state-level governments (since local jurisdictions are often just agents of the central government).

The prime minister and the government is the executive branch. So of course they don't have to fight it. Sometimes they have to fight the legislative branch, though. Of course a parliamentary system means that a government has to have a majority in parliament or leave, but that only goes for votes of confidence. In other cases there might be considerable wrangling and hashing out in order for the government to not suffer the humiliation of getting voted down.

As for local government it is another one of those stupid generalisations, where people here think Britain is Europe. Britain has extraordinarily weak local governments, but i.e in Germany the states run a significant part of the business, and in a country like Denmark the regions and municipalities administers more than 70 % of the public budget, including setting their own income tax rates.

What is common though is that the devolution of power tends to be relatively clear whether it's centralized or not. So an environmental permit will come from one place, possibly with the other bodies heard in the process. But no multiple permit, multiple entity blocking possibilities. In the US it seems like all layers of government are getting into the same case and permits have to issued by everyone. That executive and legislative bodies are often of different political hues opening for political obstruction on all levels makes it even worse. That is what makes for an extraordinarily complicated process.

I would also add that from what I know, there are a lot less lawyers in Europe and people tend not to sue as much. I think it would be rare to impossible in Europe to have the situation with CA high speed rail that was delayed by at least four years by private NYMBI lawsuits after having all the construction permits.

But perhaps more importantly, most Europeans in at least densely populated North East Europe appreciate the importance of rail transportation and understand the need for long term infrastructure investments. Americans seem to not to care about anything long term. Anything with a payout beyond the two year political cycle is too long to wait. All of these factors contribute to the overall infrastructureture decay that is btw not confined to rail.

Also, regarding your second paragraph, railways are much more a part of people's daily life in Europe; in the U. S., taxpayers hugely outnumber passengers, whereas Europeans tend to see passenger-rail projects as something that will be of use to them rather than something they never use that will merely interfere with their lives.

David Benton wrote:Modern elevated rail would probably be concrete, and more asthetically pleasing than the old steel ones.

If you're trying to run it over a Manhattan street it would likely have to be steel, at least for the support columns; reinforced concrete would take up too much space. 38th & 39th Streets are 60' wide with 15' sidewalks on either side. Here, for reference, is a Google street view shot of West 39th Street between 5th & 6th Avenues. https://goo.gl/maps/E4rkB7ZLpxE2

I'll leave you to imagine the likely reaction of the building owners along this street when informed that a multi-track mainline railroad was going to be built 15-odd feet from their 4th floor windows.

Well, speaking for foamers everywhere, I'd be thrilled. But yeah, that would be a tough sell to neighbors and property owners. Especially at three levels!

It seems to me the recent viaducts that have been built have been concrete; I'm thinking MARTA in Atlanta and Airtrain. And Airtrain was built down the middle of a highway (as a lot of MARTA was). You need plenty of clearance / buffer zones. The fact that development and property values increase after some el structures were taken down in NYC verifies that there'd be a ton of resistance. I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been a movement to bury some existing els in the Bronx as it is. They're kind of quaint now (only way to go to Yankee Stadium for me has been the 4; I cringe when I drive or take the Concourse line). But if you want to open up some of the outer neighborhoods, ditch the el.

Cement is cheaper than steel. It generally doesn't last as long, however, and steel is more earthquake resistant. I don't think EL's create ghettos - downtown Chicago has an EL and looks pretty vibrant, Boston went downhill due to redlining and public housing projects, not because of the EL which was 50 years older. An EL probably depresses the property right next to it, but one or two blocks away benefit from the transit convenience.

BandA wrote: I don't think EL's create ghettos - downtown Chicago has an EL and looks pretty vibrant, Boston went downhill due to redlining and public housing projects, not because of the EL which was 50 years older. An EL probably depresses the property right next to it, but one or two blocks away benefit from the transit convenience.

I suggest placing large public housing projects anywhere will depress property values, whether or not if it's near public transit or not.

electricron wrote:I suggest placing large public housing projects anywhere will depress property values, whether or not if it's near public transit or not.

That's what happened, then the EL and trolleys were withdrawn from transit-dependent area.

Boston's EL was built where the locals didn't have enough political muscle to force a subway to be built, I've read. Politics and who has power dictate what gets built and when, so that brings us back to topic.

Not in NYC. Here, after making underground lines became feasible, they were built where there was no one or very few people.
Like this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jnover/4545065453" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
At that time, that description happened to encompass a massive portion of NY.

NJ.com

SNIPS:

Funding approved for new Hudson rail tunnels. Will tolls go up?
...
The board members approved a resolution that allows the agency to pay debt, principle and interest on federal loans to finance Gateway, Foye said.

The first project to be covered by that agreement is replacing the 106-year-old Portal bridge, which carries the Northeast Corridor line over the Hackensack River in Kearny.

This agreement also provides a framework for financing the entire Gateway Project. It would build two new Hudson River rail tunnels, replace the Portal Bridge, build an annex to Penn Station New York, additional tracks in New Jersey and a loop track at Secaucus to allow four North Jersey NJ Transit lines to have access to New York.

Port Authority and U.S. Department of Transportation officials are currently working on a loan application for the Portal Bridge, Foye said. The cost to replace the bridge with a new two-track bridge is $1.5 billion, he said.
...

I'm surprised they are not starting with the tunnel first since that is the most important to get done before one will need to close for long term repairs.

If Portal swing bridge fails for some reason it shuts down the NEC except for Secaucus - NYP. Also Newark - WASH could run. If one of the present north river tunnels shut down traffic is severely restricted but not shut down. That may be why Portal is first.

Granted Portal probably would not fail completely unless one of the Barges hits the center pivot or bumpers. The new Portal bridge is planned to have no supports in the water way. However if the pivot fails it may take a month or more to fabricate replacement parts unless the parts are already available ? Then there is the replacement time remember how long it took for UP to repair the UP Brazos river bridge which was much less complicated.

The Portal North fixed bridge has also cleared all NEPA hurdles and is designed. That is in contrast to the Hudson tunnels at the moment, since they are going through the NEPA process and since the Manhattan end has to be redesigned to go to Penn Station rather than 34th between 7th and 6th. From what it sounds, the lag time between start of construction on Portal North and the tunnels should not be more than a year.

Amtrak plans to renovate the NEC piecemeal, not all at once. Each piece therefore has to fit with both what exists now and what they plan to exist in the future. Timing of each piece will depend upon when the environmental studies, final designs, construction permits and funding have been completed.