• Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

  • This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.
This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

  by johndmuller
 
from that NYT piece
. . . Federal officials have now promised to finish their review in two years. Mr. Howard’s report estimates that permits will take an additional year after that. If those three years could be cut in half, he said, the project would save $3 billion. . .
That year and most of that $3B could be saved if that one year permitting process were to take place in parallel with that first two year period.

As to why not, I can imagine some decent reasons, (like why should we approve this project when the details haven't even been specified yet?). But inasmuch as a lot of the details were already worked out before and many will not have changed and inasmuch as what changes that may be forthcoming in the current version will probably be identified early in the review process, the permitting authorities could probably get the necessary details early enough from the people working on the review. The 'permitters' could provide some kind of conditional permits providing that the actual details were as identified to them from the reviewing process.
  by Jeff Smith
 
^Agree on parallel timetables. I point to the "design/build" concept again that I've previously mentioned. Someone needs to goose the process.

Now, there's a proposal for a bridge, clear across Manhattan from Jersey to Long Island: NJ.com

Brief, fair-use SNIPS:
Could this Futuristic Bridge Across the Hudson Solve NJ's Transit Woes?
...
The Empire State Gateway twin suspension bridges would span about 3.5 miles between New Jersey and Queens, crossing Manhattan at 38th and 39th streets, with a rail station located in midtown, said Scott R. Spencer, a rail transportation consultant and founder of the project.
...
Each Gateway bridge would have two rail lines on the lower level, which would be more than 100 feet above the street. Two lanes for buses, and either light rail or a magnetic levitation train would use the second level, which could ease congestion at the Port Authority bus terminal and the Lincoln Tunnel, Spencer said. Pedestrians and bicycles would use a walkway on the third level, Spencer said.
...
One bridge could be built faster than the Gateway Tunnel, which would allow one of the existing 106-year-old tunnels used by Amtrak and NJ Transit to be taken out of service and rehabilitated, because prefabricated sections could be used to build the span.

"One of the twin bridges with two tracks can be completed within 60 months of (a) notice to proceed," Spencer said. "It is the fastest solution to provide an alternative rail route."
...
The article also notes the use of private capital and air rights. It's a bit more unclear as to how this might connect on the island end; while NJ and Amtrak would be helped, would LIRR? Of course, any increase in capacity relieves Penn. How would the inter-operability be between DC and catenary?

Pie in the sky (pun intended)? Or a good alternative?
  by Ridgefielder
 
This "consultant" took the abortive mid-1880s plan for a Hudson suspension bridge and paired them with the abortive mid-1950's plan for the Mid-Manhattan Expressway. Some first thoughts:
-The anchor points for the suspension cables will be huge-- and you're going to buy super-expensive Manhattan RE and fill it up with concrete to build them.
-You'd obscure block the light from the street levels of 38th & 39th street from river to river, thus setting up opposition from every property owner on said streets.
-The Municipal Arts Society, the Community Boards, the Historical Society, etc. would lose their collective minds.

Honestly, I thought those NEC Future plans that bulldozed a TGV-style ROW through Scarsdale, Greenwich and Bedford were divorced from reality, but this thing makes those plans look like a proposal to restore a 3rd track on the Hell Gate Route.

Pigs will be flying faster than humming birds before a train crosses this bridge.
  by JimBoylan
 
which would be more than 100 feet above the street
How does that compare to the required clearance over the rivers? I'm sure that at least as much clearance as under the George Washington Bridge would be required over the North River.
  by Ridgefielder
 
Both the GW and the Verrazano are listed as having 215' vertical clearance over mean high water at center span.
  by trainviews
 
Regarding consumer products (arguably not environmental) and private construction, the EU is generally much stricter than the US (things like what can legally be called "chocolate" notwithstanding). But when it comes to state action, the general attitude is that most if not all laws mean whatever the legislature (and thus, effectively, the governing coalition, and thus, effectively what the Prime Minister and his cabinet) says they mean at that moment (party discipline is generally much stronger in the EU than in the US). If the Prime Minister and his cabinet want a high-speed rail line built through a particular area, it will get built in a particular area regardless of its environmental or other impacts, because the law authorizing it will basically be interpreted as superseding any prior law to the contrary.
That is a load of bullshit, at least for the EU countries in general.
The framework for environmental permits for larger infrastructure projects is the same in all the EU countries, as the EU puts down a set of rules for hearings, protected species and habitats, noise limits etc. But how those frames are filled out are very, very different. Some countries might have a clientilistic tradition (read corrupt), others a stronger hand of the current government (I suspect Britain here and maybe also France)
But in much of Northern Europe there is a general respect for playing by the rules and the government would seize being government very swiftly if they tried to skew the process of a major controversial project. This is especially true in countries with minority or coalition governments.
The big difference is the outlandish number of agencies involved in the US (two dozen??). In the EU you would generally have one consolidated process (or two if it is cross border), where all stakeholders are heard. The environmental laws can be stricter or looser than in the US, but there is no myriad of federal/union, state and local laws and corresponding agencies to issue permits.
And once that process is over - that's it. The permit is there, often including a number of options for the politicians to choose from. So after the permit comes a political process often over how much extra money is going to be spent on things like extra noise mitigation or other stuff the neighbors want, but can't outright demand according to he law. Some countries also have more or less tradition and possibilities for court challenges in this or earlier phases, but generally not nearly as prolific as in the US where every one of the many permits can be fought.
Now as I said, this works very differently in the individual countries. Case in point is the planned 18 km Femern Belt rail and highway tunnel between Denmark and Germany. Denmark finished her review and permits in about two years. Germany first got off to a slower start due to more political ambivalence about the project, and is one of the countries with rich possibilities to challenge the permit process in court, where it is currently bogged down. So far the project is about four years behind schedule due to this and might get further delays. But once the current challenges are settled, there is not going to be yet another challenge to some obscure storm water drain permit like in Brunswick, Maine.
Likewise with the financing, where a lot less agencies, levels of government and dedicated funding streams are likely to have to work together. For the Femern Tunnel the states have made a deal that Denmark pays for the tunnel itself but gets the toll revenue. The two countries pay for the necessary related build out on their own soil. The EU will chip in too as it is a prioritized international corridor, but with how much is not yet totally clear.
So all in all it often makes for a somewhat more streamlined process and also with clearer distinctions between the legal issues and the political issues.
  by SRich
 
leviramsey wrote:
Regarding consumer products (arguably not environmental) and private construction, the EU is generally much stricter than the US (things like what can legally be called "chocolate" notwithstanding). But when it comes to state action, the general attitude is that most if not all laws mean whatever the legislature (and thus, effectively, the governing coalition, and thus, effectively what the Prime Minister and his cabinet) says they mean at that moment (party discipline is generally much stronger in the EU than in the US). If the Prime Minister and his cabinet want a high-speed rail line built through a particular area, it will get built in a particular area regardless of its environmental or other impacts, because the law authorizing it will basically be interpreted as superseding any prior law to the contrary.

You where right if it was China, not Europe. I come from Rotterdam, and there where 2 infrastructure projects, called the HSL-Zuid(High speed line - South) and the Rotterdam - Zevenaar freight line (also called the Betuweroute), The HSL has an 30!!!! years project and nearly 10 years to build for only 125 km of double track and surrounding infrastructuur. The Betuweroute was also a 27!!!! years project and nearly 9 years to build. This was because permits and environmental reviews and strict regulations with tunnels and 25 kV ~ and trackcircuit. For the national grid there is a plan to build a new nucleair reactor, with a few GW an electricity capacity, because of the permits and regulations the plan are know on hold for a while(its true Europe has an surplus of power @ the moment). The last example is the Rotterdam Airport (als known als zestienhoven), in order to increase flight capacity there must be build an extra runway, it didn't happend, the reason is again related to environment. Al these examples a government owned ore government itself. So its bullshit your post.
  by Woody
 
Ridgefielder wrote: first thoughts:
-The anchor points for the suspension cables -- buy super-expensive Manhattan real estate ...
- ... block the light from the street levels of 38th & 39th from river to river ...
-The Municipal Arts Society, the Community Boards, the Historical Society, etc. would lose their collective minds.

... those NEC Future plans that bulldozed a TGV-style ROW through Scarsdale, Greenwich ... were divorced from reality, but this thing ...
Not Hyperloop, not Maglev. Just maybe a tunnel from New Jersey clear thru to Brooklyn, Queens, or even the Bronx.

But no elevated (rail or road) ways above Manhattan Streets. Just no. We've seen the elevated highways of the Interstate system blight their way thru our cities. And we've all agreed we've had more than enuff of that.
  by Nasadowsk
 
The Europeans do sometimes have 'fun' with their infrastructure projects. Berlin's new airport is a notable fiasco. Stuttgart 21 is a big fight, too. The Hallandsås Tunnel was another notable mess...

The flip side is, Rotterdam's new station sure is nice. I'm not sure how much headache building it was, though.

Wasn't NS supposedly planning at one point to dump 1.5kv for 25kv? I seem to recall reading a lot of recent equipment orders were designed to be easily converted to 25Kv, and some of the newer construction I saw last time looked insulated for it.

Also, it's kinda cool watching locomotives pull out of Amsterdam with 2 pans up, then dropping one once they get rolling above a few km/h...

(Is that automatic, or manually initiated?)
  by SouthernRailway
 
leviramsey wrote:
Regarding consumer products (arguably not environmental) and private construction, the EU is generally much stricter than the US (things like what can legally be called "chocolate" notwithstanding). But when it comes to state action, the general attitude is that most if not all laws mean whatever the legislature (and thus, effectively, the governing coalition, and thus, effectively what the Prime Minister and his cabinet) says they mean at that moment (party discipline is generally much stronger in the EU than in the US). If the Prime Minister and his cabinet want a high-speed rail line built through a particular area, it will get built in a particular area regardless of its environmental or other impacts, because the law authorizing it will basically be interpreted as superseding any prior law to the contrary.
The UK and some continental European countries do have many fewer layers of government, and fewer branches of government and thus fewer checks and balances, which together allow faster decisionmaking.

In the US, if a big project like Gateway needs to get done, the Federal government (which can be fighting against itself, with Congress vs. Dear Leader) has to make a decision, and then it has to coordinate with the states. In this situation, that's already multiple bodies fighting against each other.

In the UK and other countries with a parliamentary system and no relevant federalism, the Prime Minister and whatever his party want, go. They have to follow existing laws for environmental reviews and the like or change them, but they don't have to fight with an executive branch (since the king/queen or ceremonial president just rubber-stamp whatever the Prime Minister and legislature want) or state-level governments (since local jurisdictions are often just agents of the central government).
  by bdawe
 
Woody wrote:
Ridgefielder wrote: first thoughts:
-The anchor points for the suspension cables -- buy super-expensive Manhattan real estate ...
- ... block the light from the street levels of 38th & 39th from river to river ...
-The Municipal Arts Society, the Community Boards, the Historical Society, etc. would lose their collective minds.

... those NEC Future plans that bulldozed a TGV-style ROW through Scarsdale, Greenwich ... were divorced from reality, but this thing ...
Not Hyperloop, not Maglev. Just maybe a tunnel from New Jersey clear thru to Brooklyn, Queens, or even the Bronx.

But no elevated (rail or road) ways above Manhattan Streets. Just no. We've seen the elevated highways of the Interstate system blight their way thru our cities. And we've all agreed we've had more than enuff of that.
Elevated rail isn't nearly as blighting as elevated highways in the places you can find it, especially if it's being used for passenger transportation. Not saying manhattan is the place we should be running elevated mainlines, but historically they've never been as bad as roads
  by SRich
 
Nasadowsk wrote:The Europeans do sometimes have 'fun' with their infrastructure projects. Berlin's new airport is a notable fiasco. Stuttgart 21 is a big fight, too. The Hallandsås Tunnel was another notable mess...

The flip side is, Rotterdam's new station sure is nice. I'm not sure how much headache building it was, though.

Wasn't NS supposedly planning at one point to dump 1.5kv for 25kv? I seem to recall reading a lot of recent equipment orders were designed to be easily converted to 25Kv, and some of the newer construction I saw last time looked insulated for it.
25 kV~ 50 Hz was indeed the planning but in Europe all new locomotives and MU are multi voltage, and the lack of needing going international the 25 kV~ was too expensive so the planning is to upgrade the 1.5 kV = to 3 kV =.
Also, it's kinda cool watching locomotives pull out of Amsterdam with 2 pans up, then dropping one once they get rolling above a few km/h...

(Is that automatic, or manually initiated?)
Manual
  by SouthernRailway
 
bdawe wrote:But no elevated (rail or road) ways above Manhattan Streets. Just no. We've seen the elevated highways of the Interstate system blight their way thru our cities. And we've all agreed we've had more than enuff of that.

Elevated rail isn't nearly as blighting as elevated highways in the places you can find it, especially if it's being used for passenger transportation. Not saying manhattan is the place we should be running elevated mainlines, but historically they've never been as bad as roads
[/quote]

In NYC, elevated rail in a neighborhood = ghetto.

Elevated rail in an urban area takes up less space than an elevated highway and so it's less disruptive, but it's still undesirable in a residential (or decent commercial) area. Only Queens and the Bronx, and non-upscale parts of Brooklyn, have elevated rail in NYC.
  by David Benton
 
Modern elevated rail would probably be concrete, and more asthetically pleasing than the old steel ones.
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