• Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by markhb
 
Also, assuming an average $10 per transaction, about 11% of DE riders use the service. First of all, that’s a pretty small percentage of riders; secondly, despite Ms Quinn’s preposterous statement about the café being a “key reason” for ridership, I’m really finding it hard to believe that Aunt Betty won’t be riding the Downeaster again from Portland to Boston because they eliminated the café car. And to NH2060's point: No toilet? No Aunt Betty.
I'd dispute that $10 average; you'd probably have to get a burger and cocktail to hit that pricepoint. I've seen pretty decent lines (and steady traffic) at the cafe counter on morning runs when people were getting coffee or a breakfast sandwich or both, and no transaction like that would hit $10.
  by Dick H
 
There was a Triathlon at Old Orchard Beach Sunday morning in which the
route involved the crossing east of the Old Orchard Beach Station. An
Amtrak police officer was on site to protect rail movments. #692 was
held at Walnut St. for about 20 minutes per his order. #691 was
advised of the situation, but it appears it was not afftected. Good
coordination by ORB, PAR and Amtak. I am reminded of the tragic event
in Texas last November, where a Union Pacific freight train plowed
into a parade float with several fatalities. The railroad had not been
notified of the event and the float was caught on the crossing.
  by ryanch
 
markhb wrote:
Also, assuming an average $10 per transaction, about 11% of DE riders use the service. First of all, that’s a pretty small percentage of riders; secondly, despite Ms Quinn’s preposterous statement about the café being a “key reason” for ridership, I’m really finding it hard to believe that Aunt Betty won’t be riding the Downeaster again from Portland to Boston because they eliminated the café car. And to NH2060's point: No toilet? No Aunt Betty.
I'd dispute that $10 average; you'd probably have to get a burger and cocktail to hit that pricepoint. I've seen pretty decent lines (and steady traffic) at the cafe counter on morning runs when people were getting coffee or a breakfast sandwich or both, and no transaction like that would hit $10.
After 300 pages of no one calling him on invented stats like that, it's tough for him to stop.
  by gokeefe
 
ryanch wrote:
markhb wrote:
Also, assuming an average $10 per transaction, about 11% of DE riders use the service. First of all, that’s a pretty small percentage of riders; secondly, despite Ms Quinn’s preposterous statement about the café being a “key reason” for ridership, I’m really finding it hard to believe that Aunt Betty won’t be riding the Downeaster again from Portland to Boston because they eliminated the café car. And to NH2060's point: No toilet? No Aunt Betty.
I'd dispute that $10 average; you'd probably have to get a burger and cocktail to hit that pricepoint. I've seen pretty decent lines (and steady traffic) at the cafe counter on morning runs when people were getting coffee or a breakfast sandwich or both, and no transaction like that would hit $10.
After 300 pages of no one calling him on invented stats like that, it's tough for him to stop.
I think its pretty ridiculous to say that somehow there hasn't been a very robust two-sided dialogue in this thread about any ideas floated here. I can certainly say for my own record that I have spent plenty of time and thought in replying to Mr. Cowford and I've learned a lot doing it. I would imagine the same goes for many others here as well.
  by Cowford
 
"After 300 pages of no one calling him on invented stats like that, it's tough for him to stop."

Ryanch, your ad hominem is disheartening. May I respectfully suggest you re-read my prior posts; you'll quickly see that I qualified this not as a statistic, but as an "assumption". I'm pretty careful about labeling assumptions as such, but I welcome you to go back through these 300+ pages to see what other "invented stats" I've brought forth.
  by Arlington
 
Also, it is interesting to note that if the average transaction were $5 we'd still be saying only 1/5th of riders are using the Cafe. So if you don't like Cowdord's number, please do two things:
1) beat it with a *better* estimate
2) show how our/his conclusions should change

These are estimates. Sometimes estimates can be off and still not be wrong enough to undo their point.
  by David Benton
 
I would think it would vary by service too.
I would imagine an early morning service would be a coffee and a muffin mainly.so around $ 5.
By contrast, I'm sure the boys could easily knock back $30 -$40 of drinks and snacks on the way to a football game.
  by Cowford
 
NNEPRA posted July results. Ridership up 2.5%, or 1,245 pax YOY. They posted top O-D pairs... wish they'd provide more data on patronage by station. The report states that ridership north of Portland is exceeding expectations by nearly 50%. What were the expectations? Last year, the projection was for 36,000 additional riders, and those haven't been generated. But that's riders, not riders generated north of Portland. The effect on Portland continues to become more clear; passengers are riding through: Ridership between BON-POR in July was down a whopping 19%.

http://www.nnepra.com/sites/default/fil ... 202012.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by markhb
 
First, I'll point out that the August NNEPRA board meeting materials have been posted on their website. (Link is to landing page, not the actual PDF.) Also, TRNE has posted their summary of Monday's board meeting.
Executive Director Patricia Quinn reported that FY 2013 was "the best ridership year ever. Ridership again broke records, exceeding 556,000 riders, which was a 5% increase over last year's record of 528,000." She continued, "Increases in ticket revenue were even more significant, exceeding $8.1 million, and surpassing the FY12 record of $7.4 million by 9%."
Arlington wrote:Also, it is interesting to note that if the average transaction were $5 we'd still be saying only 1/5th of riders are using the Cafe. So if you don't like Cowdord's number, please do two things:
1) beat it with a *better* estimate
2) show how our/his conclusions should change

These are estimates. Sometimes estimates can be off and still not be wrong enough to undo their point.
Fair enough. I'll accept that $5.00 is likely to be a reasonable guess as to the median cafe purchase, which would lead to the conclusion that 20% of total pax headcount uses the cafe. I would then assert:
  • For anyone running a business of any type, 20% of the customer base is not to be lightly ignored.
  • All we have to base the percentages on is the total headcount; there is no correction possible with the numbers we have for actual individuals. Theoretically, if every person on the train rode every day, all they would have to do is make 2 purchases/week each and we have our 20% figure while 100% of the actual persons on the train have used the cafe that week. I'm not asserting that that is the case (NNEPRA's July stats said that 16% of riders that month used a multi-trip pass of some type), simply that we have no way to correct for repeat passengers.
  • I'm not sure which original figures were used to calculate the "10% of riders" metric. Were they adjusted for round trips (safe assumption: the overwhelming majority of Downeaster passengers travel both ways via train)? If not, then our 20% of passengers just became somewhere near 40% of actual persons; one person may grab a coffee and/or breakfast sandwich on their way down, another may opt to settle in with a Bloody Mary on the way home.
  • Arlington's assertion that the cafe car ought to be "replaced" with an additional coach is potentially belied by the statement earlier in this thread that all Downeaster trainsets are now running with 5 coaches, plus the cafe. ("Potentially" because I am not aware of any verification of this statement.) I also highly doubt that anyone at Amtrak is treating Diner/Lounges and Amfleet I's as being interchangable; they're not telling NNEPRA "you can have 5 cars, mix and match coaches and cafes, your choice." NNEPRA appears to be quite capable of matching space to demand; if some trips sell out (and without the cafe you've lost a good chunk of flex space for passholders), leaving that money on the table might be preferable to spending fuel dragging extraneous empty coaches around on other trips, coaches which don't contribute to the overall customer experience of the train.
  • Purely personal observation: I ride Amtrak for the bling, particularly including the availability of the cafe car. I have plenty of other options; in fact, I'm going down tomorrow, but driving my own car. I've also taken Concord Coach many times (I haven't taken Greyhound since they closed the St. James St. terminal; CCL is just a lot better). But sometimes I choose to take Amtrak, and that's money that NNEPRA's getting that I could have used to get to Boston in any number of other ways, but I decided to spend on the premium service.
  by Cowford
 
"I'm not sure which original figures were used to calculate the "10% of riders" metric. Were they adjusted for round trips (safe assumption: the overwhelming majority of Downeaster passengers travel both ways via train)? If not, then our 20% of passengers just became somewhere near 40% of actual persons; one person may grab a coffee and/or breakfast sandwich on their way down, another may opt to settle in with a Bloody Mary on the way home."

FY 2013 cafe car revenue: $609K / $10 per transaction assumption = 60,900 customers... 2013 one-way ridership: 556,347 / 60,900 = 11% of passengers.
  by jbvb
 
Friday I rode #685 Haverhill - Saco. I wasn't counting passengers, but it wasn't as full as my pre-Labor Day rides had been. The WiFi in my car had connectivity, but the DNS server was wedged - I could do anything I knew the IP address for. Crewman said the IT people didn't let them touch the WiFi. Lots of passengers off at both Wells & Saco. 5 min. late at both, but presumably all made up by Portland. There is now a brewpub on Main St. within an easy walk of the Saco depot - "Run of the Mill". I liked their beer, but service & food appeared to suffer a bit because we arrived at the peak of their rush.
  by Dick H
 
I don't see it posted on the AmtrakDownteaster.com site yet, but there
is a notice at the Dover station that Saturday and Sunday, September
14th and 15th, will see another one of those limited schedules with
some trains running only as far as Haverhill westboud. Some trains
are cancelled all together. They are running a morning and evening
bustituation. A promotional one way fare of $5.00 will be in effect
on some trains. This is the same limited schedule that was run on
several weekends this past spring. This is for the Shawsheen River
Bridge project in Andover MA.
  by MEC407
 
Dick H wrote:I don't see it posted on the AmtrakDownteaster.com site yet, but there
is a notice at the Dover station that Saturday and Sunday, September
14th and 15th, will see another one of those limited schedules with
some trains running only as far as Haverhill westboud. Some trains
are cancelled all together. They are running a morning and evening
bustituation. A promotional one way fare of $5.00 will be in effect
on some trains. This is the same limited schedule that was run on
several weekends this past spring. This is for the Shawsheen River
Bridge project in Andover MA.
I'll be aboard two of those $5 trains on Saturday. Not quite sure what I'll end up doing in Haverhill (other than having a few beers at the local pubs)... but at least it's cheaper than going to the movies! And as my animated alter ego Hank Hill once said "It involves a train, so I guess I'll just focus on that." :wink:
  by MEC407
 
From Foster's Daily Democrat:
Foster's Daily Democrat wrote:On Saturday, Officer Daniel Pelkey responded to a call about a vehicle being driven southbound on the railroad tracks. According to Chief Stephen Peasley, when Pelkey arrived at the Route 9 overpass he spotted something amiss. A car appeared to be stuck on the main set of tracks.

In the distance, Pelkey spotted the headlight of an Amtrak train barreling down the tracks. The 2013 Volkswagen was not moving. Pelkey immediately had dispatch notify Amtrak of the situation.

The car's driver, Robert J. Grudowski, 45, of 103 Locksley Lane, Wells, was alerted of the incoming train and made it off the main tracks to the secondary tracks as the train passed within just a few feet of the vehicle. The train never came to a halt.

A half-full bottle of Jack Daniel's whisky was found on Grudowski's passenger seat. His blood alcohol content was determined to be .17. Anything at or above .08 while operating a vehicle is a criminal offense in Maine.
Read more at: http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar ... /130919848" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by Patrick Boylan
 
Does the law say operating a motor vehicle or does it say something about on a street or highway, in which case maybe he avoids serious charges if the state can't prove he drove while drunk on a street.
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