Amtrak Diner and Food Service Discussion

JimBoylan wrote:What's different between these new meals and...former Amclub meals that were also served on the Cardinal 40 years ago?

These are fresher
I'm thinking the right people to ask would be NARP board members who were on the tour.

But from an economics standpoint, the big difference from 40 years ago is that Amtrak's urgency of finding better solutions is way more urgent:
- Amtrak's labor costs are undoubtedly up both in real terms and moreso versus other food-production wages (which are tied to a minimum wage that hasn't kept up). So Amtrak's labor costs are up.
- Meanwhile, as shown above, the market price / perception for what food (grocery or prepared) should cost is down.

I'd be pretty sure, too, that food preparation/preservation science has advanced greatly in prep, freezing, preserving, and re-heating.

Here's a diner-economics-logicstics question: where would such meals get produced & loaded? There's a test kitchen in Wilmington, but would the food get produced there, or by somebody like Sky Chefs or Sysco? Where are the "catering hubs" today?

Arlington wrote:

JimBoylan wrote:Here's a diner-economics-logicstics question: where would such meals get produced & loaded? There's a test kitchen in Wilmington, but would the food get produced there, or by somebody like Sky Chefs or Sysco? Where are the "catering hubs" today?

Amtrak doesn't have any catering hubs, so they could build catering kitchens just about anywhere they wanted. I would choose amongst existing Amtrak hub cities where their existing commissaries are - a necessary part of their food infrastructure already existing. But they just as easily place the kitchens in right to work states where labor costs are cheaper and transport the preprepared meals to those commissaries. Additionally, Amtrak doesn't have to use third parties to prepare the meals, they could keep it all in house - but off the trains.

This won't work as well for Amtrak but I was surprised to discover that the westbound Via Ocean gets its catered meals from the Weston hotel which is attached to the Halifax station.

There are _lots_ of options for catered meals.

electricron wrote:Amtrak doesn't have any catering hubs, so they could build catering kitchens just about anywhere they wanted. I would choose amongst existing Amtrak hub cities where their existing commissaries are - a necessary part of their food infrastructure already existing. But they just as easily place the kitchens in right to work states where labor costs are cheaper and transport the preprepared meals to those commissaries. Additionally, Amtrak doesn't have to use third parties to prepare the meals, they could keep it all in house - but off the trains.

So where are the commissaries today? Havent they already been sourced to Aramark (I get the impression from the OIG report that Aramark says some of the spoilage rate for food is the train's fault for over-ordering)

Most airlines, like Amtrak, have a test kitchen. They consult with celebrity chefs and destination-themed restaurants for meal design, but then outsource daily production and delivery to either LSG Sky Chefs or Flying Food Group or Gate Gormet (who did Acela's food until Aramark took over...I'm not sure who does it now) Unless the Amtrak comissaries are in unusual cities, I'd expect them to be in the exact same cities that attract fancy international flying and plenty of first-class airline service. If Amtrak does outsource, I'd expect the real reason to be that the airline caterers already have large, flexible, high-quality, specialized production (their experience and facilities will win them the work, not their labor costs).

Arlington wrote: So where are the commissaries today? Havent they already been sourced to Aramark (I get the impression from the OIG report that Aramark says some of the spoilage rate for food is the train's fault for over-ordering)

Answers http://rail.transportation.org/SiteColl ... 202013.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Amtrak has commissaries in Seattle, Oakland, Los Angeles, Chicago, New Orleans, Boston, New York City, Washington D.C., Sanford, and Miami. Note, where all Long Distance trains turn-a-round except San Antonio. Amtrak's turn-a-round stations facilities in San Antonio are basically nonexistent which explains why there isn't a commissary there. Which means most of the food on the northbound Eagle has been aboard the train since it left Chicago three to four days earlier.

Aramark and Amtrak's working contract places management of the commissaries in Aramark's control, but all the food and buildings are owned by Amtrak. Aramark's key performance indicators include:
FDA & Public Health Inspections, Stock Costs Savings, Condemnage Savings and Inventory Control.

Does this mean that the Southbound AutoTrain gets leftovers from the Northbound trip out of Sanford, or is there motor vehicle delivery from Washington?
Does the Sunset Limited deliver anything to the Eastbound Texas Eagle at San Antonio?
What about Cafe Cars? Are any that originate in Springfield, Mass, or Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia points replenished enroute?
Are all others returning to New York or Chicago serving stale food?

The Carolinian cafe is only stocked at Sunnyside -- there is no organized restocking in Charlotte. Southbound trips have everything on the menu, Northbound is much leaner. Attendants have told me that sometimes they will make an emergency run to the grocery store in Charlotte during the overnight, but I have never seen any evidence of that.

This situation may change slightly when (if) the Charlotte passenger service yard opens up. NCDOT is planning to restock the vending machines on the Piedmonts there so they will have (very limited) food supplies there. (the yard was funded with ARRA money and thus planned to be open no later than 2017, unfortunately construction has not started yet)

Rockingham Racer wrote:

gokeefe wrote:The best reason why Amtrak should continue to reform their foodservice model is because accommodations (coach, business, first, sleeper) are truly what they do best. That is where the big money and big opportunities are for them. They are extremely competitive on a qualitative basis with airlines in that area, in fact they simply put them all to shame.

This is probably true as far as it goes, but I think the airlines have it when in first class, especially international first class.

As someone who flies 50k+ miles a year, usually in first class, I'd agree that airlines are way ahead in terms of treatment of first class customers/frequent travelers. Amtrak doesn't even offer standby on earlier trains, much less free alcoholic beverages on board or in lounges!

SouthernRailway wrote: As someone who flies 50k+ miles a year, usually in first class, I'd agree that airlines are way ahead in terms of treatment of first class customers/frequent travelers. Amtrak doesn't even offer standby on earlier trains, much less free alcoholic beverages on board or in lounges!

I assume the airlines are charging a high enough first class fare to actually turn a profit giving away free alcoholic beverages, I can't assume the same for Amtrk although I wish I could. It's one thing to ask Congress to subsidize food on long distance train sleeper passengers, but somehow I believe asking Congress to subsidize free alcoholic beverages will fail faster than a headless chicken!
It'll be far easier for Amtrak to give away benefits like free alcoholic drinks to first class passengers if Amtrak could charge high enough fares to Pay for them.

electricron wrote:

SouthernRailway wrote: As someone who flies 50k+ miles a year, usually in first class, I'd agree that airlines are way ahead in terms of treatment of first class customers/frequent travelers. Amtrak doesn't even offer standby on earlier trains, much less free alcoholic beverages on board or in lounges!

I assume the airlines are charging a high enough first class fare to actually turn a profit giving away free alcoholic beverages, I can't assume the same for Amtrk although I wish I could. It's one thing to ask Congress to subsidize food on long distance train sleeper passengers, but somehow I believe asking Congress to subsidize free alcoholic beverages will fail faster than a headless chicken!
It'll be far easier for Amtrak to give away benefits like free alcoholic drinks to first class passengers if Amtrak could charge high enough fares to Pay for them.

Check out the fares for my commute:

Amtrak, first class, NYP-CLT on 4/29: $792
American Airlines, first class, NYC-CLT on 4/29: $208 to $247

I do this commute constantly and see Amtrak first-class fares of around $475 to $800 and plane first-class fares of $200 to $800 ($129-$179 more than coach), and usually not more than $350 if you book at least a week or two in advance. In short: flying costs a lot less, usually. Most first-class passengers, at least domestically, are coach passengers who are upgraded because they are frequent fliers; that's me, but I'll pay for first class if I really want it and figure that I won't be upgraded with a coach ticket.

Another fail for Amtrak is not having standby for earlier trains. When I fly, I can go standby for free; on Amtrak, if I want to go on an earlier train (common in the Northeast), I have to cancel my ticket and buy a new one for the earlier train, at whatever last-minute price the ticket is going for. That's a huge disincentive to take the train over the plane.

electricron wrote:

SouthernRailway wrote: As someone who flies 50k+ miles a year, usually in first class, I'd agree that airlines are way ahead in terms of treatment of first class customers/frequent travelers. Amtrak doesn't even offer standby on earlier trains, much less free alcoholic beverages on board or in lounges!

I assume the airlines are charging a high enough first class fare to actually turn a profit giving away free alcoholic beverages, I can't assume the same for Amtrk although I wish I could. It's one thing to ask Congress to subsidize food on long distance train sleeper passengers, but somehow I believe asking Congress to subsidize free alcoholic beverages will fail faster than a headless chicken!
It'll be far easier for Amtrak to give away benefits like free alcoholic drinks to first class passengers if Amtrak could charge high enough fares to Pay for them.

the bigger issue is that amtrak has to worry about what Congress thinks about doing things that make sense like giving away alcoholic beverages. what's a decent beer cost, 1.50? not a big deal. people love it on the acela.
also agree on the stand-by train. their sock it to you corridor pricing also kills short distance travel which should be huge volume on the nec

electricron wrote:Amtrak's turn-a-round stations facilities in San Antonio are basically nonexistent which explains why there isn't a commissary there. Which means most of the food on the northbound Eagle has been aboard the train since it left Chicago three to four days earlier.

That's a shame - I'd love to be able to get a fresh Tex-Mex meal or some beef brisket aboard the northbound Eagle

It'd be nice to see more local foods, continuing this topic. I doubt it'll happen to a major extent, except possibly for state-supported service whose managers would know the best local suppliers, but it'd be nice.

mtuandrew wrote: That's a shame - I'd love to be able to get a fresh Tex-Mex meal or some beef brisket aboard the northbound Eagle

It'd be nice to see more local foods, continuing this topic. I doubt it'll happen to a major extent, except possibly for state-supported service whose managers would know the best local suppliers, but it'd be nice.

I agree! They used to serve chicken quesadillas for lunch on the Eagle years ago, I don't know if they still do. But I was always disappointed that chilli was absent from the menu, although that might have been a good because they most likely would have served beans in it. Ugh!
Additionally, I doubt Amtrak's insurers would allow a wood fired smoker aboard the train, and good bar-b-que requires the beef to be smoked for hours. Of course, there are plenty of caterers in Texas who could deliver bar-b-que beef to the train, but that would make the cook onboard redundant.

My favorite regional lunch dish on Amtrak was the Idaho Star with all the fixings served on the Empire Builder. Does anyone know if it is available today?

electricron wrote:I agree! They used to serve chicken quesadillas for lunch on the Eagle years ago, I don't know if they still do. But I was always disappointed that chilli was absent from the menu, although that might have been a good because they would most likely would have served beans in it. Ugh!
Additionally, I doubt Amtrak's insurers would allow a wood fired smoker aboard the train, and good bar-b-que requires the beef to be smoked for hours. of course, there are plenty of caterers in Texas who could deliver bar-b-que beef to the train, but that would make the cook onboard redundant.

The on-board cook can still make corn bread, chili, and beans (even if you don't like them!) Also, good Texas chili doesn't necessarily include beans.

This is the kind of diner or cafe menu that would be very, very welcome to me. Half-smokes and Chicago mix popcorn on the Capitol Limited, Jucy Lucys and Dakota frybread on the Builder, and burritos and gumbo on the Sunset. Also, get them some local beers while you're at it - some Schlafly and Shiner would be great for the Texas Eagle. Good luck getting it from Aramark, of course.

The Texas Eagle did$8.6m in Sleeper Class in the year ending Sept 2015 (Table A-3.4, page 21 of PDF) . Back in 2012, its food costs were $7.8m, which at even just 3% per year of escalation puts them at $8.4m. THis on a train where costs were $56m and revenues were $27m for 2015.

If anything, the story on the Eagle has to be like on the Silver Star: better to eliminate the diner, lower fares, and boost sleeper-class ridership. Next step for the Texas Eagle has got to be figuring out how the cafe can serve airline food, not reworking the diner menu.