• 1 free transfer?

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by sccaflagger74
 
I know this is pretty much wasted bytes since we are talking about SEPTA after all, but has SEPTA ever thought about allowing 1 free transfer? Would the additional ridership offset the revenue loss even a little bit? One free transfer would make it much easier to get around the city and would really help folks from suburban points transferring to the el, etc. Those folks who make 2 transfers would only be hit with a $0.10 increase each way as a result of having to buy another fair (assuming token use), and odds are that most folks making such a trip are using a pass of some sort anyway.

I am a casual user of SEPTA, about once a week for work. I would be inclined to use SEPTA more often but nearly all of my trips involve a connection at 69th St. The added $1.20 per person round trip makes the car a better option (in time and money spent) when I have free parking waiting for me at my destination, or even if I have to pay in the city on the weekend.

Am I crazy in thinking that SEPTA could attract a lot of new riders by allowing 1 free transfer?

Regards,

Bob

  by tinmad dog
 
Sounds a lot like the system in New York, where a bus-subway or subway-bus transfer is free within two hours of the first payment. Of course, what enables the MTA to do that is the metrocard, which automatically figures it out, no drivers handing out paper transfer slips or anything old-fashioned. Would be nice to see something like that here, but not likely. I don't know how much it might attract new riders, but we need a modern fare structure anyway, no more of this multi-zone transfer bs

  by JeffK
 
I've been told by several SEPTA officials that they are so concerned that ANY adjustment to fare policies will result in a revenue decrease (whether that fear is justified or not) that they are effectively paralyzed regarding any substantial change to the Kafakesque nightmare that characterizes the existing fare structure.

Also, because many SEPTA routes are not point-to-point but of necessity force riders to transfer during their journey, the extra cost functions as a kind of surrogate zone charge. This is especially true in the city where for any number of reasons (mostly political) neither SEPTA nor its predecessors has been able to institute a formal zone structure on the longer routes such as already exists on the other transit and RRD divisions.

Interestingly enough, at the same time I also understand they have internal studies showing that the current transfer cost (one of the highest in the country, among systems that use transfers) causes a measureable shift in rider behavior towards inefficient use of the system. For one example, interviews with C bus riders cited two major reasons for not transferring to the faster and higher-capacity BSS:

(1) they didn't care for the "ambience" :( of the subway
(2) at the income levels of many riders, paying an extra $1.20 per day was a signifcant enough hit on their budgets that they opted to waste extra time sitting on a bus to avoid paying for a transfer.

So, instead of acting as a feeder route to a faster and more efficient rail line, the C bus continues as a completely parallel and duplicative service that is immune to any attempts at reduction or restructuring.

One other consideration that also would argue in favor of eliminating or at least reducing transfer charges: If you remember far enough back, there was a time when a transfer was needed between the BSS, MFSE and SS lines in Center City. They gained a bit of extra revenue at the cost of a lot of rider inconvenience and slowed passenger flow while everyone queued up to go through a second set of turnstiles.

The TTC in Toronto had a very similar arrangement on its subway lines, which have a layout that's a lot like SEPTA's. Unlike SEPTA, though, they made the leap of eliminating transfers between the two lines and in fact did see an increase in ridership. That was at the time David Gunn was in charge here. He regularly rode the P&W and one morning a few of us who were familiar with the TTC's success took a chance, politely introduced ourselves during the ride and suggested that SEPTA should at least look at what had happened in Toronto. Instead of blowing us off, he actually listened for a few minutes (guess that's one reason why so many people respect him) and said he would look into the matter. I don't know if our conversation was directly responsible, but it was only about a year later when SEPTA eliminated transfer charges between the subway lines.

One negative I can think of with a free transfer is that it might encourage people to obtain them whether needed or not, and the extras might "leak" to other riders for their base fares, which would cause a revenue hit. An alternative scheme might be some nominal charge, or a limited-scope free transfer such as that used on WAMTA specifically to allow people to exchange between bus and Metro lines.

But yeah, the bottom line is that the real answer is to scrap the current crazy-quilt system and come up with something for the 21st century that doesn't require Algebra I to understand and isn't "serious about change". Given the four failed fare studies already undertaken in the last decade, any real reform is gonna be years, maybe decades, in the future unless they pink-slip a major part of the population at 1234.

  by #5 - Dyre Ave
 
SEPTA's so worried about losing fare revenue, yet they have 18 perfectly good PCC-2's that are ready to go for service on Route 15 and that they spent good money to rebuild, yet they continue to run that line with buses. They also had money to begin dismantling Route 56's trolley infrastructure. And they've got money to run the Route C bus even though there's a perfectly good, fast subway line under Broad Street. I bet if you asked any of the SEPTA board members or Faye Moore what it means to have common sense or logic, you would get blank stares from all of them. If you told them they have to manage their money wisely, they'd look at you like you had two heads.

  by #5 - Dyre Ave
 
tinmad dog wrote:Sounds a lot like the system in New York, where a bus-subway or subway-bus transfer is free within two hours of the first payment. Of course, what enables the MTA to do that is the metrocard, which automatically figures it out, no drivers handing out paper transfer slips or anything old-fashioned. Would be nice to see something like that here, but not likely. I don't know how much it might attract new riders, but we need a modern fare structure anyway, no more of this multi-zone transfer bs
And I haven't heard of any plans for SEPTA to introduce a MetroCard-type fare collection service. Even the MBTA (the Boston version of SEPTA and I mean that figuratively and literally) has finally put its Charlie Card/Ticket fare collection into service, which was long overdue.

  by JeffK
 
#5 - Dyre Ave wrote:I bet if you asked any of the SEPTA board members or Faye Moore what it means to have common sense or logic, you would get blank stares from all of them.
That's about as close to a sure bet as anyone could make. You could film a sequel to "Clueless" at 1234 without hiring any actors.
And I haven't heard of any plans for SEPTA to introduce a MetroCard-type fare collection service
When SEPTA introduced the existing pass system some 20+ years ago it was state-of-the-art and was in fact ahead of what most other cities had at the time. But instead of continuing to move forward, they're now so mired in FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt) that they'd rather stick with a broken system rather than try to make any more improvements.

Look what happened with the RRD TVMs. SEPTA bought machines that were missing one little detail: they couldn't be upgraded when new currency was introduced. They eventually pulled all of the TVMs except at Center City where you have to use separate machines to convert your bills to change first (unless, of course, you happen to have a 1985-vintage twenty in your pocket...) Meantime, conductors still have to carry wads of bills and punch tickets the same way they did when the Paoli Local was steam-hauled.

  by SEPTALRV9072
 
I've got an idea. Why don't they keep the ticket offices open later than 1PM.

  by Matthew Mitchell
 
JeffK wrote:I've been told by several SEPTA officials that they are so concerned that ANY adjustment to fare policies will result in a revenue decrease (whether that fear is justified or not) that they are effectively paralyzed regarding any substantial change to the Kafakesque nightmare that characterizes the existing fare structure.

I've seen that too. I think it's more fear of the unknown than any realistic expectation of what will result if we change the fare structure or fare technology. Sometimes it's driven by anecdotal reports--they assume that anything bad that's happened in other cities is gonna happen here.

Of course if everybody subscribed to that logic, nobody would be using ticket vending machines for commuter rail, since SEPTA [fouled] up theirs so badly.

The proper answer of course is to manage and solve the problems rather than hold up any progress in order to prevent them.
Also, because many SEPTA routes are not point-to-point but of necessity force riders to transfer during their journey, the extra cost functions as a kind of surrogate zone charge. This is especially true in the city where for any number of reasons (mostly political) neither SEPTA nor its predecessors has been able to institute a formal zone structure on the longer routes such as already exists on the other transit and RRD divisions.

Yep. But there's also a management disincentive to zone fares since they require more work to implement (both on the part of operating personnel and of managers). I think that at this point that this latter obstacle may be even more significant than the political one, and it certainly has been holding sway in the actual fare changes SEPTA has implemented the last decade (fare zones were reduced or eliminated on many routes).

BTW, I wrote a series on the pros and cons of zoned fares for the DVARP newsletter several years ago.
Interestingly enough, at the same time I also understand they have internal studies showing that the current transfer cost (one of the highest in the country, among systems that use transfers) causes a measureable shift in rider behavior towards inefficient use of the system.

Indeed. And the problem is that it is affecting the trips where you could gain the most, efficiency-wise, by getting passengers onto rail.

And the cost difference weighs even worse on commuter rail, which is one reason the in-city lines don't perform well enough on ridership.
For one example, interviews with C bus riders cited two major reasons for not transferring to the faster and higher-capacity BSS:

(1) they didn't care for the "ambience" :( of the subway
(2) at the income levels of many riders, paying an extra $1.20 per day was a signifcant enough hit on their budgets that they opted to waste extra time sitting on a bus to avoid paying for a transfer.

My anecdotal experience (people I've worked with, etc.) is the same. I think fear of the subway outweighed the cost issue in most cases, and it was like this even when transfers were only 40c.
So, instead of acting as a feeder route to a faster and more efficient rail line, the C bus continues as a completely parallel and duplicative service that is immune to any attempts at reduction or restructuring.

Indeed. But there is a legitimate market need served by the C as opposed to the subway, specifically short trips and elderly and other passengers who will have trouble with the stairs to and from the subway.

SEPTA of course managed to miss this fact when it threatened to shut down the C during last year's budget crisis. Seems like there's no middle ground for them--either they run a heavy and expensive service, serving a lot of trips that ought to be on the subway instead because SEPTA management has chosen to bleed the transfer riders and save 5 cents off the more visible fare increase, or they want to run nothing at all. Typical.

[snip]
One negative I can think of with a free transfer is that it might encourage people to obtain them whether needed or not, and the extras might "leak" to other riders for their base fares, which would cause a revenue hit.

Translated: fare evasion, which is the all-purpose excuse managers trot out any time somebody proposes a fare instrument or policy they don't like.(*) They tried to kill the DayPass that way, but the CAC was adamant in its support of the DayPass, and eventually an uneasy truce was reached, where SEPTA sells a DayPass but doesn't market it much.

That said, there really was a problem with fare evasion via transfers sold on the street for the San Francisco Muni. However, that was merely a symptom of the broader disorder that characterized the city and the lax management of Muni a decade or so ago.
An alternative scheme might be some nominal charge, or a limited-scope free transfer such as that used on WAMTA specifically to allow people to exchange between bus and Metro lines.

Actually, the best alternative is the stored-value card (e.g. Metrocard), where the passenger can't give away the transfer without giving away the rest of the value of the card. That's one of the primary arguments in favor of implementing a card here.
But yeah, the bottom line is that the real answer is to scrap the current crazy-quilt system and come up with something for the 21st century that doesn't require Algebra I to understand and isn't "serious about change". Given the four failed fare studies already undertaken in the last decade, any real reform is gonna be years, maybe decades, in the future unless they pink-slip a major part of the population at 1234.
Once again, you've nailed it.

*--why can I call this an excuse? Because when I called management attention to another fare evasion risk: cashiers not doing their jobs properly (I did a little experiment where I'd show an outdated pass to the cashier [this was prior to the pass-reading turnstiles], I was let through something like 60 percent of the time), they didn't do anything about it.

  by Matthew Mitchell
 
SEPTALRV9072 wrote:I've got an idea. Why don't they keep the ticket offices open later than 1PM.
Because at most stations, the amount of fares sold would barely cover the cost of the additional agent.

There are second-trick agents at a handful of stations outside Center City, like Jenkintown.

  by LAUNCHman
 
JeffK is right on the money. The C and other bus route overcrowding can be appeased by more efficient use of transfers and the subway, if affordable.

However, I think the transfer is the only incentive for some city residents to buy weekly and monthly transpasses. If a $1.30 token carried you too far across the city, you'd have no need to buy a pass that cost any more than $48 or so. Let alone $19 per week, which is about $80.

And on the topic of weekly and monthly, I think it is HILARIOUS when I hear paycheck to paycheck folk say they can't afford to buy a monthly so they pay day-to-day with cash or maybe get a weekly. If the financial situation is that bad then they can not afford not to save the money to buy in bulk! FIN 101.

  by JeffK
 
LAUNCHman wrote:And on the topic of weekly and monthly, I think it is HILARIOUS when I hear paycheck to paycheck folk say they can't afford to buy a monthly so they pay day-to-day with cash or maybe get a weekly. If the financial situation is that bad then they can not afford not to save the money to buy in bulk! FIN 101.
Dead certain!! That's the result of no one teaching basic biz math anymore in middle school or high school, let alone college. I did run such a course at the college level ~25 years ago and was floored by the number of people even then who had no idea what an APR is or why making minimum payments on your Visa / MC sells your soul to the company store(*)

If people had better skills SEPTA couldn't get away with the stunts they pull, in effect pricing things at "ten cents each or 2 for a quarter"(#); maybe there wouldn't be rent-to-own stores or even ripoffs like Coinstar.

(*) see Ford, Tennessee Ernie
(#) see Possum, Pogo

  by Umblehoon
 
LAUNCHman wrote:And on the topic of weekly and monthly, I think it is HILARIOUS when I hear paycheck to paycheck folk say they can't afford to buy a monthly so they pay day-to-day with cash or maybe get a weekly. If the financial situation is that bad then they can not afford not to save the money to buy in bulk! FIN 101.
Yet we are taught in RealLife 101 that sometimes, things don't work out neatly. Why buy a monthly, if you may not be taking enough trips to make it worthwhile? Is it better to lose a few dollars on months where you DO need to travel every day, or lose those dollars on months where you don't? I know paycheck-to-paycheck people who buy day-to-day or week-to-week because, quite frankly, it really does work out to be cheaper. Don't assume that everyone who decides against monthlies to save money is a financial mismanager.

  by jfrey40535
 
How do the monthly passes work out when you have months like Feb which only have 28 days, but months like March that have 31? Does that mean shorter months you're getting less bang for your buck?

  by Umblehoon
 
Yes.

  by One of One-Sixty
 
LAUNCHman wrote:And on the topic of weekly and monthly, I think it is HILARIOUS when I hear paycheck to paycheck folk say they can't afford to buy a monthly so they pay day-to-day with cash or maybe get a weekly. If the financial situation is that bad then they can not afford not to save the money to buy in bulk! FIN 101.
First off, I am glad that you can laugh at others misfortunes, secondly, people who leave paycheck to paycheck, do not always have the luxury of spending $70.00 right there on the spot for a transpass, that they probably will not even use to get their moneys worth.

Some of these people have other expenses, like children, paying for their own healthcare, taking care of their younger siblings or grandparents/parents.

Life is not always cut and dry, black and white where a person can just go out and spend $70.00 when they have other things that is more important that they have to pay for.
JeffK wrote:maybe there wouldn't be rent-to-own stores or even ripoffs like Coinstar.
Whats wrong with rent to own places? It gives people who otherwise would not have the financial means to go out and buy a $1400 living room set. It is the same thing as buying a car and fianancing it or taking out a loan for higher education. In fact your house is techincally not yours, but the lender that you are paying your mortage to, so basically you are in a rent to own scenario, if you miss your mortage payments( the rent), it is the lender comes and forcloses and takes your house.

And the thing with Coinstar, I find it perfectly fine, it actually teachs little kids how to save their money.

My 4yrs old daughter and I use coinstar all the time. Whenever she finds money on the ground or whatever she picks it up and puts it in her little piggy bank, when it gets full we take it to the coinstar machine. She then puts part of it in her 529 account and the rest she either can put in her savings account or buy something with it.

Coinstar can be a great educational tool, as it teaches responsibility, accounting and math.