1 free transfer?

For me, I'd be more than willing to pay $3 a ride if that $3 got me from my house in Bensalem to Center City (130 to 14 to El) on that one fare. That's how it works in NY, why not here?

Bensalem SEPTA rider wrote:For me, I'd be more than willing to pay $3 a ride if that $3 got me from my house in Bensalem to Center City (130 to 14 to El) on that one fare. That's how it works in NY, why not here?

For some values of "works." That $3.00 flat fare might not be so attractive if your regular ride was from 40th St. to 19th St.

The flat fare in New York is a political artifact.

This is WAY off topic but I can't resist. Coinstar teaches a bit of financial responsibility but it also teaches that it's OK to give up 6% (or whatever the number is) of your money simply for counting it when their are free services out there that do the same. Check out Commerce bank for the free version of this.

And rent to own places are bad because the interest rates are horrendous. You are better off living with a Goodwill couch for a year and putting your money under the mattress until you have the $1400. No interest and you own the couch. Rent to own is only slightly better than payday loans in my mind.

Bob

it not that it counts it for you, it is that it takes the hassel and pain of rolling up all the loose change that the bank otherwise will not take unless it is rolled.

Cionstar I guess you can say is the lazy man coin-roller. Also the percentage fee that is taken really is only if your trying to cash in like $50+ and more. Besides from when you was alittle kid have you ever tried to deposit a large amount of cions? With Cionstar you dont have the hassel of rolling and sorting the coins, and that is what they are really charging you for, not the counting.

The interest rates with the rent-to-own are no worse than the 15%-25% that comes with some loans credit cards and so forth.

Everybody has their own views and lets just leave it at that

No need to roll coins at Commerce, and you can deposit as many coins as you want (I've exchanged $300 at a time) with no fee. I do not have an account at commerce.

Agree to disagree on rent-to-own.

Now, isnt' there a train around here somewhere? Transfers, SEPTA, aargh. OK, we're back on topic.

Bob

Flat fares can work in areas where there are a lot of free interchanges on a broad-based system like the NYC subway. Phila has a different model where many longer trips require at least one transfer. Failure to understand the impact of transfer charges was one of the major holes in the Phoenix study's conclusions about how to reform SEPTA's fares (see earlier discussions about the C bus, for ex.) Even if you dropped the cash fare to say $1.50 (IIRC Phoenix's magic number) anyone who has to transfer would see their net costs go up significantly. Plus, there would be even less incentive to use bus routes as feeders to more-efficient rail services.

And OK, since I started the rant about those two non-SEPTA services, to explain my opinions: Coinstars charge roughly 9 or 10% (not 6%) depending on location. Rent-to-own stores can approach triple digits for long term contracts. Even the most usurious credit cards aren't in that league. BTW I work for a competitor of Commerce but outside of work I still recommend that people visit them for their coin-counting needs since they have no restrictions.

There is too much sympathy here. And my friend LAUNCHman was not insensitive enough to deserve a suspension from the board. His argument was misunderstood. Of course it's sad that people cannot afford a transit pass. What's sadder is that if they could discipline and buy that first one, the savings would roll in. And LAUNCHman wasn't mocking SEPTA's use of the pyramid fare structure, or those to succumb to it. He who dares not offend... doesn't improve the sorry situation for those who aren't looking out for themselves. Heeding LAUNCHman's advice would help the poor, but the emphasis was on his scoffing personality so he may have been misconstrued there but I digress.

And, before you defend Coinstar from LAUNCHman's wrath, at least LAUNCHman isn't charging people 8% to cash in their pennies. Now that would be Scrooge-esque.

JeffK wrote:Flat fares can work in areas where there are a lot of free interchanges on a broad-based system like the NYC subway.

Failure to understand the impact of transfer charges was one of the major holes in the Phoenix study's conclusions about how to reform SEPTA's fares...

Phoenix was all excited about a flat fare per boarding, which would reduce the cash base fare SEPTA was getting beat up over, in exchange for raising the cost of a transfer to the full base fare.

That system was quite the fad in the industry a few years ago, when Phoenix did its report. Phoenix got all caught up in the buzz of various systems adopting it, but didn't recognize the differences between SEPTA the systems that were switching to that structure.

Where a fare structure like that can work is in highly radial route structures like Baltimore, where most everyone is traveling to and from the same place, and few need to transfer. The fare structure caught on because it's cheap and easy to manage. There are some managers in SEPTA who want to drastically reduce the number of fare instruments SEPTA offers, for the stated reason of reducing administrative costs--that it makes their jobs easier was a bonus. However, in a system like ours, the revenue lost from flattening the fare stucture and the cost of unintended consequences would outweigh the administrative savings.

Jeff has correctly identified some of the many reasons that system would be a bad idea here.

Matt Mitchell
(relies on small children for coin counting services)

This may be the same as last year's, from the SEPTA capital budget:

FARE COLLECTION SYSTEM UPGRADE

This project provides for the upgrade and expansion of SEPTA’s fare collection system and equipment. SEPTA’s fare collection equipment has outlived its useful life, but has remained functional through equipment overhaul programs and the acquisition of used equipment from other transit agencies.

Continuing advancements in the telecommunications industry will enable SEPTA to modernize or replace current revenue collection equipment and will greatly improve customer service and convenience. Validating fare boxes will be installed on buses and light rail vehicles from which riders can purchase a variety of fare instruments. Exact fare would no longer be required to board a SEPTA vehicle and electronic fare cards would replace tokens and paper transfers. New full service vending machines located in subway-elevated, subway-surface and selected regional rail stations, and at other terminal locations will improve customer convenience of fare instrument purchases. Regional Rail conductors will be issued hand-held point of sales devices that will have the capability of recording on-board sales information and provide a fare instrument and/or a receipt. Computer equipment and software systems will be replaced to support the enhanced system-wide fare collection system.

Control, accountability and reconciliation will be made an integral part of the new fare collection system. The introduction of new fare collection technology will attract riders to the system and facilitate more accurate gathering of ridership and revenue information. This project will realign fare collection within SEPTA across all modes, fleets and business functions.

A Fiscal Year 2006 Congressional earmark has been requested in support of this project.

I propose a fare system which charges according to how many miles you travel, much like BART or the DC Metro.

FARE COLLECTION SYSTEM UPGRADE
Validating fare boxes will be installed on buses and light rail vehicles from which riders can purchase a variety of fare instruments. Exact fare would no longer be required to board a SEPTA vehicle and electronic fare cards would replace tokens and paper transfers.

The current fareboxes were supposed to have that capability, just with the use of a few acessories similar to the DART fareboxes...

New full service vending machines located in subway-elevated, subway-surface and selected regional rail stations, and at other terminal locations will improve customer convenience of fare instrument purchases. Regional Rail conductors will be issued hand-held point of sales devices that will have the capability of recording on-board sales information and provide a fare instrument and/or a receipt. Computer equipment and software systems will be replaced to support the enhanced system-wide fare collection system.

Now, if SEPTA could keep TVM's at outlying stations from constantly breaking down, or being vandalized, I'd say they should change their ticketing system to something similar to NJ Transit's. Those of you who have purchased tickets from NJT TVM's or agents know how their system works: all ticket types are printed on one stock, and show station of origin and destination. Gone would be the multiple types of ticket stock and colors printed for SEPTA use....a little cash savings there. And it opens the door to a full joint SEPTA-NJT ticketing arrangement through Trenton...