• WMATA 8000 Series Rail Cars

  • Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.
Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: mtuandrew, therock, Robert Paniagua

  by farecard
 
Unlike Europe, there seems to be some deep phobia in the US over delivering transit vehicles via railroads.

Yes, they lack RR standard couplers.
Yes, they have different brakes
Yes, they don't meet spec 27Bstoke6
etc.

But in Germany, a country where the state religion is rules, they manage. I've seem imagery of, and read about, an intermediate flatbed car used for same. On the front, it has a coupler and brake connection to the locomotive. On the rear, ones that matches the transit cars being delivered. Also it has a small diesel powerplant to provide electricity and compressed air & some interface controls that slave the transit brakes to the locomotive's.

Now, obviously BART cars will be the wrong gauge, but besides them, I'd bet 99% would be viable. I suspect the real issue is, when it come to change, the railroad industry makes the old Bell System look like a Ferrari.
  by STrRedWolf
 
farecard wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:56 pm Unlike Europe, there seems to be some deep phobia in the US over delivering transit vehicles via railroads.

Yes, they lack RR standard couplers.
Yes, they have different brakes
Yes, they don't meet spec 27Bstoke6
etc.

But in Germany, a country where the state religion is rules, they manage. I've seem imagery of, and read about, an intermediate flatbed car used for same. On the front, it has a coupler and brake connection to the locomotive. On the rear, ones that matches the transit cars being delivered. Also it has a small diesel powerplant to provide electricity and compressed air & some interface controls that slave the transit brakes to the locomotive's.

Now, obviously BART cars will be the wrong gauge, but besides them, I'd bet 99% would be viable. I suspect the real issue is, when it come to change, the railroad industry makes the old Bell System look like a Ferrari.
Yeah, you'll probably have the cars w/o trucks on the freight carrier and the actual motive trucks ether secured on a separate freight carrier or actually semi-hauler'ed in.
  by ConstanceR46
 
I think it's mostly up to manufacturer choice.
  by scratchyX1
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:45 pm
scratchyX1 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:48 pm
Sand Box John wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:28 am I see them being shipped to Greenbelt Yard by truck as the article states the plant is a 90 minute drive from the Hagerstown plant to Greenbelt. Shipping by rail would require switching between local trains either in Baltimore MD or Cherry Run WV.
Oh, yeah. 90 minute drive, or few hours train ride, and I don't know where they would interchange in baltimore.
It's a shame, it would be steady traffic for a few years, that any shortline/regional would love.
I can't see these being shipped by semi-hauler. I'm looking at a recent (2022) Google Maps Satellite view of Greenbelt's yard... and it looks very hard to do that. Meanwhile, you got NYC MTA R32 subway cars being hauled away for scrap via freight train consists, SC-44's and passenger cars being hauled the same way. Plus, Greenbelt yard has a connection to that CSX line (remembered that through my college days).

Mapping it out... ether it gets handed off and there's reverse moves the more "direct" way... or it takes the Hanover Subdivision from Hagerstown down to Curtis Bay yard, then an engine swap to get it down to Greenbelt.
I know the 1000 series cars which were hauled to the scrapyard next the BOMX (where 2101 sit, for a few years), got there via semi.
IF they were hauled by rail,
I imagine that it would be it's own special run from curtis bay, down to greenbelt. You don't want those on a 2 mile PSR "special", blocking the Washington Branch.
  by Sand Box John
 
STrRedWolf
I can't see these being shipped by semi-hauler. I'm looking at a recent (2022) Google Maps Satellite view of Greenbelt's yard... and it looks very hard to do that. Meanwhile, you got NYC MTA R32 subway cars being hauled away for scrap via freight train consists, SC-44's and passenger cars being hauled the same way. Plus, Greenbelt yard has a connection to that CSX line (remembered that through my college days).


WMATA hasn't taken delivery of rail cars by rail sense 1970s when the 1k cars were delivered to Brentwood Yard. The 2,3, and 4k cars were delivered by truck to Alexandra Yard along with the shipping and returning of the rehabilitated 1, 2 and 3k cars. The 5, 6 and 7k cars were trucked into Greenbelt Yard. All of the cars that were scrapped were hauled away by truck from Greenbelt Yard. Hell the first three DC street cars were trucked and stored at Greenbelt Yard until the H Street Streetcar line was ready to run them.

The Lowboy trailers used to haul the rail cars have steerable axles on them to allow them to navigate around tight corners.
  by tommyboy6181
 
There are some interesting new details about some firsts that we will see on the 8000 series cars from Hitachi. More details can be found at this link: https://www.railwayage.com/mechanical/w ... IgWrSBHb_M

To sum it up:
- The 8000 series will use SiC-VVVF Inveters which will be a first for propulsion systems in North America. SiC-VVVF is a newer technology that has started to be used in Asia and Europe and allows for much more compact traction inverter cases which saves a significant amount of weight. Also, they are more energy efficient and are quieter than the IGBT counterparts. A recent example includes the Stockholm C30 fleet built by Bombardier.

- Wireless controls. The 8000 series will use controls that are to IoT standards and be fully wireless. This eliminates a significant amount of wiring needed within the trains which saves labor costs.

- Onboard WiFi, digital screens, HD security cameras and heated floors will also be featured.

Another thing that has come out is the German company ZF will be building the gear units for the Hitachi propulsion system. They previously supplied similar units for railcars built in Miami and are currently working on the new Baltimore train fleet.
https://press.zf.com/press/en/releases/ ... 42113.html
  by daybeers
 
Cool! Heated floors...fancy!
  by STrRedWolf
 
tommyboy6181 wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:06 pm Another thing that has come out is the German company ZF will be building the gear units for the Hitachi propulsion system. They previously supplied similar units for railcars built in Miami and are currently working on the new Baltimore train fleet.
Oh nice. Yeah, Miami shook out all the bugs and Baltimore's design is similar to Miami's. Looks like the 8000's would be a similar design as well.

Sad to see the last Budd subway cars go, though.
  by farecard
 
- Wireless controls. The 8000 series will use controls that are to IoT standards and be fully wireless. This eliminates a significant amount of wiring needed within the trains which saves labor costs.
IoT "standards"??? What standards?

The downside is: everything is more complicated, less reliable, and intermittently fails.

I predict longer downtimes, and frustrated repair crews and riders.

Which is more reliable: your desktop computer, plugged into a CAT5 cable, or a cell phone in your basement office? Plus everything needs power, so that requires wires. There are proven wired schemes such as CANBUS that would be well-suited.

I hope that vital/critical systems such as braking are hardwired; I can't imagine them not being. Losing the lighting or HVAC does not kill someone, but.... Oops! RFI; the doors shouldn't have opened in the tunnel..Sorry!

Transit flashback: The Fremont Flyer... BART was going to be cutting edge, with lots of superduper hitech features. The reality was: low-bidder Westinghouse had no experience/history in ATC/railroad environments and made major errors in their initial assumptions.
  by YOLO
 
lol everything wireless ... you've got to be kidding me.

cant wait until someone hacks the railcars and does god knows what to em
  by STrRedWolf
 
farecard wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:51 am
- Wireless controls. The 8000 series will use controls that are to IoT standards and be fully wireless. This eliminates a significant amount of wiring needed within the trains which saves labor costs.
IoT "standards"??? What standards?
Probably ZigBee or LoRa or something similar. Ether way, someone will probably ride the rail with a packet capture rig the size of their hand in their pocket and then build some way to take over a train wirelessly... or just jam the signal.

The thing here though is this is DC. The FBI and FCC are very near by. Unless you got the paperwork and approvals to test it out, you're facing heavy legal trouble.
  by scratchyX1
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:59 pm
farecard wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:51 am
- Wireless controls. The 8000 series will use controls that are to IoT standards and be fully wireless. This eliminates a significant amount of wiring needed within the trains which saves labor costs.
IoT "standards"??? What standards?
Probably ZigBee or LoRa or something similar. Ether way, someone will probably ride the rail with a packet capture rig the size of their hand in their pocket and then build some way to take over a train wirelessly... or just jam the signal.

The thing here though is this is DC. The FBI and FCC are very near by. Unless you got the paperwork and approvals to test it out, you're facing heavy legal trouble.
The CIA and NSA are nearby, I think they will be testing gear looking for those trying to wardial a train.
OTOH, maybe they might wardial the doors to work correctly.
and did i really say "wardial a train"?
  by farecard
 
Never attribute to malice that which is better explained by incompetence.

The gadgets will fail all by themselves; no sabotage required...
  by RandallW
 
Railroads run wirelessly all the time. It's not like distributed power relies on running cables between the lead locomotive and the mid-train or rear units or single man operations in a yard relies on the operator being cabled to the locomotive.
  by STrRedWolf
 
scratchyX1 wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:09 pm The CIA and NSA are nearby, I think they will be testing gear looking for those trying to wardial a train.
OTOH, maybe they might wardial the doors to work correctly.
and did i really say "wardial a train"?
NSA... maybe not. They're still up in Ft. Meade. CIA... can we say "live action proof of concept?"

And I'm totally stealing "wardial a train."
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