• Will Secaucus, Hoboken be ghost towns if one-seat is built

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: lensovet, Kaback9, nick11a

  by Tom V
Interesting question raised by the media, in light of Gateway's momentum pushing the project forward what will happen to Secaucus and Hoboken?

http://www.nj.com/bergen/index.ssf/2016 ... built.html

I think the question is easily answered, Gateway shouldn't just be about changing the terminus of existing services. It should also be about expansion, expansion of the current lines and also creating opportunities to establish new routes. Not all Bergen/Main and Pascack Valley line trains will switch to NY Penn, and for those who work in Lower Manhattan and or Hoboken/Jersey City Hoboken Terminal is still the best option. However those lines will probably see less frequencies to Hoboken, as the M&E probably did when they opened up the Mid-town direct service. This leaves room for something like additional trains from new routes like the Lackawanna cut-off, NYSW to Sparta and West Shore service. Those should get new considerations in light of the Gateway tunnel.

  by trainbrain
Personally I'd like to see an end to the practice of turning RVL trains at Newark. Any trains that don't go to Penn Station after Gateway is built should go to Hoboken. I'd also like to see an introduction of NEC service to Hoboken. It would give people living in Hoboken and Jersey City access to Amtrak trains and Newark Airport. Also, since many companies have built offices in Hoboken, there would be demand at least in the peak hours for some NEC trains to run there.

When many M&E trains moved out of Hoboken, I believe that was around the same time that mid day service was greatly increased on the Main/Bergen/Port Jervis/Pascack Valley Lines.
  by Tom V
I agree with sending more RVL, NEC and NJCL to Hoboken, via an expanded waterfront connection. However don't most people get off at Newark anyway on current Hoboken trains from the RVL and NJCL? If you're going to Lower Manhattan, Jersey City isn't the quickest route to change to the PATH at Newark Penn? And if your heading to Mid-Town the quickest route again is to get of at Newark and onto a NY Penn bound train?

What I've been wondering with regards to Secaucus JCt. is could it be used as a terminal for trains that otherwise would have to terminate at Newark or Hoboken? As part of Gateway they're planning on building a loop at Secaucus so Hoboken division trains can access Manhattan directly. They were also planning on building a yard at Secaucus as part of ARC, not sure if it's included in Gateway. A Raritan Valley line train, a Diesel from Bay Head or even new trains from the MOM line could operate all the way to Secaucus, which would be the last stop. They would either then lay-up at Secaucus yard or use the loop to access the West bound tracks to go back to the Meadowlands for storage. This would have the benefit of given those riders access to all NY bound trains, whether they come from the NEC/NJCL, M&E, Montclair, Bergen, Main, Pascack Valley etc.. This would provide more options than crowding onto NEC and NJCL trains at Newark. Also anyone heading to Lower Manhattan or Jersey City would just switch to the PATH at Newark.

I propose this because obviously Hoboken would be the preferred option, but from my experience the waterfront connection trains crawl from Newark to Hoboken. There has to be a way to speed that portion up.
  by trainbrain
Why should trains terminate at SEC instead of Hoboken? The infrastructure is already in place to turn trains at Hoboken, so it makes no sense to build more to cut service.

On the lines that currently use the SEC lower level, approximately 1/3 of passengers get off at Secaucus to transfer to a NEC train and the rest stay on to Hoboken, some continuing to Lower Manhattan on the Path. Hoboken has much more demand during peak hours than anything because there are many companies that located their offices there. If some trains that currently use Hoboken are switched to Penn Station, I definitely think it would be a good idea to at least have some peak hour trains on the NEC go to Hoboken.
  by Steampowered
i think they need to go all the way, with an MTA subway connection to Hoboken, and the Newark airport. Maybe a shared path/subway concept. Honestly with tunnels , some of the closer to nyc lines , like suffern, and ny bound lines , could get become fully mta .
  by Hawaiitiki
I agree with everybody regarding this has to do more with expansion than changing service.

Like when midtown direct service was introduced, ridership will skyrocket, necessitating more trains. I remember seeing theoretical schedules routing about half of the current Hoboken division trains into Manhattan because even with four tunnels going into NYC, they still wouldn't have the capacity at rush hour, tunnel- or yard-wise, to route even close to the entire CURRENT Hoboken (Monty-Booty, Gladstone, BCL, Main, and PVL) division into Manhattan.

Also, people who work in Manhattan or in the suburbs may not realize; Jersey City and Hoboken both have full fledged business districts these days, thanks in part to tax cuts related to relocating in the vicinity of public transit. The Light-Rail from Hoboken terminal to JC is packed at rush hours, and it would be an absolute nightmare if Hoboken service simply dried up.
  by JimBoylan
As for the original "Ghost Towns" question, they said the same thing when the West Side Connection was made between Spuyten Duyvil and Penn Station, N.Y., that the only entertainment left in New York City would be to go down to Penn Station and watch the Syracuse to Syosset Express go through without stopping.
  by TDowling
I imagine this will function for the hoboken division much the same as it does with the midtown direct service.
  by Backshophoss
Track space at NY Penn and at Sunnyside Yard is a bit overloaded at this time,there's 0 room for more trains. :(
  by Wingnut
The closest parallels would be LIRR's Atlantic Terminal and Jamaica. Are those ghost towns? No. One is used mostly as a transfer facility and the other is a quicker way to reach Lower Manhattan. Hoboken will be fine as a lesser used but still important station. Harder to keep relevant in the future will be Secaucus which has no PATH or subway connections. Yes, development there is being contemplated but environmental obstacles will probably limit what can be done there.

I'm just not understanding that loop arrangement. What's keeping New York bound trains from turning left after departing lower level Secaucus and merging with the NEC that way?
WN: Let me add this about Jamaica-Atlantic Terminal Brooklyn service:

The LIRR may turn this route into a shuttle service using a new platform F - Tracks 9-10 at Jamaica - with a new staircase adjacent to the passageway
leading to the JFK Airtrain terminal when East Side Access finally opens for service...ESA schedule changes will be the most significant since zone fares
were introduced to the LIRR in the Winter of 1972...

Brooklyn will be slated to lose through LIRR service under
the ESA plan from points E of Jamaica - in fact there has
been mention of this route being operated by NYC Transit
as a rapid transit line just one possibility...

Hoboken and Secaucus are just too busy to ever become "ghost towns" in the future...An interesting thought is any addition of track connections that
would allow service from SEC Lower through to NYP in the future - my guess that any change of this sort would not happen until there are new Hudson
River Tunnel(s) up and running along with a new Portal Bridge to at least supplement the current aging swing bridge with two additional tracks...

Last edited by MACTRAXX on Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by amtrakowitz
Funny how everything is still "eggs in one basket" when it comes to travel to Manhattan; only the existing stations can be considered. Never any consideration for tunneling from Hoboken East End into downtown (plenty of need for redevelopment in the Houston Street area), from any of the parties, with the possibility of continuing through onto the LIRR's Bushwick Branch onto the Lower Montauk or Montauk Cutoff; this should have been done instead of ESA or ARC/"Gateway", or, frankly Kearny/Swift. Such a route could naturally include a deep-level stop at Hoboken, to maintain local service (think along the lines of Market East under Reading Terminal in Philly), and would have potential for far better connections to subway routes than NYP or GCT. Of course, hindsight is 20/20 and big money becomes bigger money the higher inflation goes and the greater the regulations emerge from the administrative state in DC, never mind the egos of the politicians involved.
  by F40
Secaucus will not be a ghost town. They have a dedicated taxi lane, and a pick up/drop off lane which has activity throughout the day. (During the Hoboken shutdown, there was a long line of cars overflowing into the street, people just decided to be picked up there instead of fumbling around with additional travel options).

In addition, the Edison Park lot is well utilized during the week and for events at MetLife stadium, and the newly expanded bus plaza now serves several bus lines (including Megabus). The plaza can also double as an alternative route for buses in case there is a major incident in the Lincoln Tunnel or smaller events at MetLife stadium which do not warrant the use of heavy rail trains.

http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/201 ... mmute.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by Ken W2KB
Wingnut wrote:I'm just not understanding that loop arrangement. What's keeping New York bound trains from turning left after departing lower level Secaucus and merging with the NEC that way?
The intermodal freight yard and the large warehouses / other businesses that would have to be acquired and demolished. The loop does not impact any other businesses/operations.