Why not use spare commuter trains for discount service?

SouthernRailway wrote:

TomNelligan wrote: Maybe they've concluded that there is no economically viable market. The key words there are "economically viable" -- would it contribute to Amtrak's bottom line after expenses and whatever ticket sales are diverted from existing services? There is also no assurance that the commuter authorities want to lease out equipment on more than a one weekend a year basis.

That certainly may be the case. If Amtrak or any commuter railroads have looked at this type of service, I'd be curious.

NJ Transit leased equipment to the Atlantic City Express service for a long time. I'd think that a commuter railroad itself could operate its own equipment or lease it to Amtrak.

I doubt Amtrak would allow NJT to operate its own service over non-New Jersey trackage. That said, I believe that at the end of Clocker service NYP-PHL, Amtrak was using ALP-46s and NJT cars with its own crews. Might be worth another look.

Moderator's Note: I think that we'll move this to the Amtrak forum pretty soon, unless there's a compelling reason not to.

The Northeast Corridor Future program (http://www.necfuture.com/) proposes a Metropolitan service something like what's proposed here: semi-express trains making more stops and charging lower fares. The Metropolitan trains would be in addition to commuter trains and intercity expresses, and they would connect many more city pairs. The planners think there are enough travelers to fill trains offering several tiers of service.

SouthernRailway wrote:

TomNelligan wrote:NJ Transit leased equipment to the Atlantic City Express service for a long time.

Hardly a precedent that will have operators stampeding. In any event, since Amtrak owns the NEC, with how much good grace could they be expected to view SEPTA/MARC closing the gap between Perryville and Newark in order to reduce margins on NER services, not least with MARC shaping to operate diesel only on the Penn line if things go the way they look to?

dowlingm wrote:

SouthernRailway wrote:NJ Transit leased equipment to the Atlantic City Express service for a long time.

Hardly a precedent that will have operators stampeding. In any event, since Amtrak owns the NEC, with how much good grace could they be expected to view SEPTA/MARC closing the gap between Perryville and Newark in order to reduce margins on NER services, not least with MARC shaping to operate diesel only on the Penn line if things go the way they look to?

If Amtrak gets its money or track improvements, it'd be just fine with SEPTA and MARC closing the gap. Same with Metro-North operating over the Hell Gate, and Shore Line East reaching out to MBTA/RIPTA.

Mod Note: Moved to the Amtrak forum, since they're the probable operator (or at least host) of any discount service.

Although how useful would extending MARC to newark or SEPTA to perryville considering how little service there is to perryville and newark? It would probably require a big increase in service to be useful.

This is not as practical nor as good as it first sounds. For one thing not all commuter equipment can operate over the extremes of the NEC for clearance purposes, curves, clearances, third rail, platforms, tunnels, OH wires etc. For another thing the NEC is nearing its saturation point especially with regard to repairs and restorations to tunnels, wires, bridges and other things. Single tracking the tunnels west out of Penn Station for one thing is a huge obstacle. Another thing it is imperative that all of this commuter equipment be back in Boston, New Haven, New York, Trenton, Philadelphia, Baltimore or Washington or whatever the case may be in plenty of time for the commuter rush on Monday morning or else. Metro-North already carries the vast majority of passengers using rail between New Haven and New York and probably the same goes with NJT between New York and Trenton. It sounds good but today is vastly different from the 50's and 60's when this was much more frequent on the corridor trains.
Noel Weaver

I would certainly frequent train service that goes from Metropark to Philadelphia. Right now on commuter rail, you're penalized with an idiotic 20 minute transfer in Trenton, and a $4 "screw New Jersey" surcharge from SEPTA, which means a one way ticket is around $20. That's wickedly expensive and time consuming for what could be a 45 minute ride, but takes 1:30.

I'd love to give Amtrak the same $20 to offer a one seat ride on the type of service proposed in the OP, rather than the $70 they frequently demand.

As for "it will steal customers from other Amtrak service" complaint - not at all. The prices are so high because of the long distance demand, from DC to NYC. If you just want a short trip in the middle, then theres no seats left for you.

People wont trade from an Amtrak Regional to a Special Discounter for long (4 hour) rides, since the seats suck. But 1 hour? Sure. And right now those 1 hour trips cant be done on Amtrak.

Another opportunity would be something like Newark-Stamford. Again, you COULD do it via commuter rail, but theres an ENORMOUS transfer time penalty. Having a one seat Amtrak would be VERY valuable.

electricron wrote:The last thing left for Amtrak to do to match Ouigo service is run to alternate station locations. Could not entering Manhattan at all be achievable for Amtrak on the NEC? Paris is not a city made up mostly by islands like New York. Could a station located in Yonkers or White Plains work? If we could eliminate the tunnels and the resulting restrictions cause by them, maybe just maybe Amtrak could implement an Ouigo service on the NEC?

The money needed to carve out a brand new ROW (even one located entirely on the surface) across the north edge of NYC/south edge of Westchester County and over the Hudson would be better spent building a deep-bore, quad-tracked tunnel under Manhattan serving a new level beneath the existing Penn Station as part of a true high-speed rail line paralleling the existing NEC.

Noel Weaver wrote:This is not as practical nor as good as it first sounds. For one thing not all commuter equipment can operate over the extremes of the NEC for clearance purposes, curves, clearances, third rail, platforms, tunnels, OH wires etc.

On top of which, the commuter equipment that is cleared the whole length of the corridor is old single-level equipment (various classes of Comet cars) that is all scheduled to be replaced in the next decade or so with bi-levels.

TomNelligan wrote:Saturday is a slow day for Northeast Corridor travel, as you can see by checking fare availabilities. There is no real demand for additional capacity. Sunday afternoons are busy, but why should Amtrak undercut its own fare structure by offering cheaper fares on a spartan service when they can demand more on a busy travel day?

To provide a convenience to the public.

To reduce automobile traffic by providing an affordable alternative to driving.

To get more people on trains.

Isn't that why we have Amtrak?

And maybe they actually would make money on the service. Right now they're losing the business of everyone who doesn't want to pay the very high NEC fares.

Amtrak should do whatever it can to find ways to operate more trains, to more places, more efficiently. At peak intercity travel times, Amtrak doesn't run much more than once an hour. Commuter trains are sitting in the yard. Amtrak trains are sold out, or very expensive. Amtrak needs some leadership that will rethink their current ideas, which are rather stuck in the status quo.

Until the NEC is running 12-car trains every 15 minutes, like we'd see in Europe or Japan, there's plenty of room for improvement.

I think a discount Amtrak Northeast Corrider would attract many people considering how many buses there are going to NYC a day. From Worcester Ma there are at least 8 a day, I am not sure how many go from Boston but Im sure theres a ton from there. If a train was 45 minutes faster than a bus and within a few dollars of the bus price wise I would take a train, even if it was a crappy commuter car. Sure, bus seats are can recline and you could say they are more comfortable, but in a train you have more space, which is nice. Anyways, on a bus I dont like to recline my seat and I really don't like when someone in front of me does it because they end up pretty much in my lap.

I think the big issue will be increased scheduling, and locomotives that would be able to operate the trains. I would think taxpayers of most states would be more than happy to lease there unused cars on weekends. If they are making enough to maintain the cars I think the leaser and taxpayers would be happy. But for locomotives that is a different situation. Incompatibility and maintainence requirements will make it harder to get locomotives to operate the discount trains. The entire Northeast Corrider is electrified, but many potential leasers only have diesel locomotives. Amtrak would have to lease additional locomotives to operate the trains or use some of there older ones, and that could lead to reliably issues. I think its a great idea, but I think it will have significant problems that they will have to overcome before it could work.

I'm imagining two trainsets of 10-12 NJT Multilevels sandwiched between an ACS-64 and an Amfleet or Horizon cafe-lounge (also serving as handicap seating.) They'd leave NYP on Friday evening going to BOS and WAS. On Saturday, each set would go to the other end of the Corridor in the morning and return in the evening. Sunday morning, there'd be a single BOS-WAS or WAS-BOS one-way, with a return to NYP from BOS and WAS that night to get ready for the Monday rush. Granted, this is predicated on there being enough people willing to ride for cheap and buy lots of refreshments in the cafe, but it's not all that different a concept from Ouigo or the Megabus model. And, even with 100 mph max speeds, that's a large amount of time on the Corridor at maximum cruising velocity.

There are enough people and frankly the more people the more profitable food service. There used to be 130 buses a day from philly to ny not including people who drive to nj and catch njt

Might make more sense to put in some sort of cross honoring agreement to expand Amtraks reach via commuter rail.

Until the NEC is running 12-car trains every 15 minutes, like we'd see in Europe or Japan, there's plenty of room for improvement.

Does the USA, even in New York, have the population demand for this? I'm not thrilled about spending money to run empty trains.

I'm not really in favor of this idea. People would buy out the cheap tickets and the more expensive Regionals would run empty at a loss.

I do agree that sold out trains should be getting more capacity, and that they can do more aggressive marketing to fill off peak trains that aren't full, but I don't agree Amtrak's job is to provide subway frequency service on the NEC.