Why no Regional Rail ticket machines at 30th Street Station

Not only could I not buy a ticket from 30th Street Station to the airport on my phone, but there weren't even any ticket machines there. I had to stand in a line at a customer service desk to figure out what to do, and then stand in another line at a sales desk, all to buy a ticket that cost just a few dollars.

What gives; are union rules blocking SEPTA from installing ticket machines, or something else prevents SEPTA from installing them?

Thanks.

Just a massively antiquated fare collection system. However, their much delayed new one is starting rollout in a few months beginning with some of the subway lines.

They used to have ticket vending machines at various locations, including the airport and major stations, however they were apparently hard/expensive to maintain and removed. Accepting cash only, especially from the airport where there really aren't many ATMs or bureaus de change outside security, is a real problem for passengers.

Please don't jump to blame the union workers. SEPTA's lack of TVMs falls squarely at management's feet. The Regional Rail Division has arguably the most primitive fare system in the country. For occasional riders it's stuck in the middle of the last century. The problems stem from a combination of earlier attempts at cost-cutting plus current policies of maximizing riders' fare payments, all while fixating on an eventual electronic system that's still not ready to go live on RRD.

To add some details, SEPTA was on a starvation budget when they originally attempted to provide TVMs. They "saved" by buying bare-bones machines that (surprise) turned out to be expensive to maintain and repair, and over time all but a few machines were removed. The remaining ones were done in by the Treasury Department during the early 1990s - the cheapo machines had hard-wired bill scanners that could only recognize one style of currency designs and refused to accept any new "big head" bills.

A few years ago SEPTA decided they could, as one person described it, "enhance" RRD revenue via policy changes. Up till that time SEPTA imposed a penalty surcharge on fares paid on-board when a station's ticket office was open but charged the standard fare if there was no office or it was closed. A lack of TVMs was inconvenient but not punitive. Then SEPTA turned that policy on its head by rolling the surcharge into the standard fare and rebranding the ticket-office fare as "discounted". As khect noted a large minority of riders, particularly at the Airport, are now forced to pay the surcharge because they have no other way to buy a ticket before boarding. Those extra bucks are a huge incentive for SEPTA to make it as difficult as possible to pay ahead of time. They refuse to even temporarily bring back TVMs, almost certainly because of the extra revenue generated by the hidden surcharge. Their response is always that the problem will go away when their new "Key" e-payment system goes live, despite the fact there's no target date for its implementation on the RRD.

FWIW, my daughter lived in Berlin about a decade ago. She could pay her U-Bahn fare with her phone back then.

IIRC, RRD ticket sales are outsourced through a third party, so to the best of my knowledge they are not unionized. So the issue of acquiring new TVM's is not labor related.
I can't see how hard it is buy new TVM's since most other transit agencies use them (i.e NJT, Path, LIRR, etc.) The equipment is pretty much off the shelf these days.

FWIW, it is reported in the latest Tramways & Urban Transport that the Douglas Bay Horse Tramway on the Isle of Man accepts contactless cards. What was the SEPTA slogan awhile back--we're getting there? (Admittedly, their fare structure is probably simpler than SEPTA's, which has four different fares from Chestnut Hill to Center City, depending on the route, day of the week, and time.)

Wow. Management at SEPTA should be axed. Not to even have such a basic thing as a ticket vending machine is pathetic.

amtrakhogger wrote:IIRC, RRD ticket sales are outsourced through a third party, so to the best of my knowledge they are not unionized. So the issue of acquiring new TVM's is not labor related.

Amen to that.

I can't see how hard it is buy new TVM's since most other transit agencies use them (i.e NJT, Path, LIRR, etc.) The equipment is pretty much off the shelf these days.

If they put in TVMs all those lucrative surcharges would evaporate. The last time I went through PHL I picked up a "how to ride" brochure; it didn't even MENTION buying in advance - just "pay 8 bucks on the train". I reported it to the Airport's customer service chief and to the head of the Visitors' Bureau, after which I heard precisely absolutely completely nada.

ExCon90 wrote:What was the SEPTA slogan awhile back--we're getting there?

That slogan was preceded by "Serious About Change", which only lasted until people started adding graffiti like "Yeah. Nickels, dimes, and quarters."

JeffK wrote:To add some details, SEPTA was on a starvation budget when they originally attempted to provide TVMs. They "saved" by buying bare-bones machines that (surprise) turned out to be expensive to maintain and repair, and over time all but a few machines were removed. The remaining ones were done in by the Treasury Department during the early 1990s - the cheapo machines had hard-wired bill scanners that could only recognize one style of currency designs and refused to accept any new "big head" bills.

A few years ago SEPTA decided they could, as one person described it, "enhance" RRD revenue via policy changes. Up till that time SEPTA imposed a penalty surcharge on fares paid on-board when a station's ticket office was open but charged the standard fare if there was no office or it was closed. A lack of TVMs was inconvenient but not punitive. Then SEPTA turned that policy on its head by rolling the surcharge into the standard fare and rebranding the ticket-office fare as "discounted". As khect noted a large minority of riders, particularly at the Airport, are now forced to pay the surcharge because they have no other way to buy a ticket before boarding. Those extra bucks are a huge incentive for SEPTA to make it as difficult as possible to pay ahead of time.

SEPTA TVMs were introduced in 1985 by Ascom of Switzerland. These machines were retired as of 1/27/07. I recall when the new $20 bill was introduced (1998), many transportation agencies had difficulty adjusting their equipment. The 1985 machines were present at only a few locations: the three Center City terminals, PHL Airport and Trenton (which had no on duty agent - since then NJT agents and machines now sell SEPTA tickets on NJT stock).

The August 2007 ERA bulletin (page 16) has the details on the July 2007 fare revision, which eliminated special round-trip fares, charged higher cash fares on board at all times, in addition to eliminating the unlimited "Daypass".

To SouthernRailway, the original poster: Let me get this straight. You couldn't buy a ticket on your phone and there were no TVM's. So you actually had to ask what to do at Customer Service? You didn't know to just (gasp!!!) buy your ticket at the ticket window from an agent like was done for a hundred years before TVM's and smart-phones?? Were you born yesterday?

I can't imagine what would happen if your smart-phone went dead and you couldn't text message someone, and had to actually (gasp!!) make a phone call using a conventional hard-wired telephone. That would probably ruin your whole week!

Head-end View wrote:To SouthernRailway, the original poster: Let me get this straight. You couldn't buy a ticket on your phone and there were no TVM's. So you actually had to ask what to do at Customer Service? You didn't know to just (gasp!!!) buy your ticket at the ticket window from an agent like was done for a hundred years before TVM's and smart-phones?? Were you born yesterday?

I can't imagine what would happen if your smart-phone went dead and you couldn't text message someone, and had to actually (gasp!!) make a phone call using a conventional hard-wired telephone. That would probably ruin your whole week!

There is no reason for you to be so nasty.

It's common--and has been common for the last 30 years--for public transportation agencies to have ticket machines. In NYC, you actually cannot buy subway fare any more from a real person at most stations, and so expecting to buy a ticket from a real person is not a normal thing anymore. I simply expected SEPTA to be a First World transportation system and have made efforts to adopt technology to save its customers' time. Apparently that was too much to expect.

Again, there is no reason for you to be so ugly to a total stranger. Are you that way in real life?

And what's this so called rock and roll music these kids are listening to these days? And why aren't they wearing thier knickerbockers?

Just poking some good natured fun at the angry poster. I do the same thing he does all the time, right up until my wife points out just how old I sound when going on a diatribe about I-Phones and whatnot.

The other poster is right, it isn't all that common to have to make face to face transactions in the modern economy. Whether or not that is a good thing is up for a lot of debate (I tend to think it's bad), but he's right...it isn't common anymore.

R36 Combine Coach wrote:SEPTA TVMs were introduced in 1985 by Ascom of Switzerland. These machines were retired as of 1/27/07. .. The 1985 machines were present at only a few locations: the three Center City terminals, PHL Airport and Trenton

Prior to that time there were machines at many suburban locations as well. IIRC they didn't last long because it was difficult for SEPTA to keep them filled plus there was a lot of trouble with vandalism. The boxes in CC, at the airport, etc. stayed longer because they were better-protected and easier to maintain.

I recall when the new $20 bill was introduced (1998), many transportation agencies had difficulty adjusting their equipment.

New designs were introduced in 2000 on $5 and $10 bills as well, so the scanner problem hit pretty quickly across the board. Admittedly technology was a lot more limited back then which made it cumbersome to upgrade existing scanners. However new bill designs were in the offing at the point when SEPTA bought their boxes. As I understand events surrounding the Ascom purchase (and please correct me if I'm mistaken!) the model SEPTA chose couldn't be upgraded, only replaced, dooming most of the machines. We all remember that SEPTA's temporary "fix" for the few remaining machines was to put change machines that could handle the new bills next to the TVMs. Nothing like paying for your tickets with 20 bucks worth of coins!

SouthernRailway, my apologies for flaming you. I was just totally surprised by your confusion at having to buy a ticket at a ticket window. I'm guessing you're much younger than I am, and you've grown up in a world of new technology. I'm a retiree and I like the best of both the new and the old ways. Though I like TVM's, I have no need to buy a ticket on a smart-phone. I remember telephones with dials and pay-phone booths too.

One other thing I just have to ask you. Are you one of those customers at Starbucks who actually uses a smart-phone app or a credit card to buy a $2.00 cup of coffee instead of just paying cash? Sorry, I just had to ask you that. (Chuckle!)

BTW, if you think SEPTA is bad, you should see Boston's MBTA where they don't even have ticket windows or TVM's at many commuter-rail stations and you buy your ticket at the candy store down the street. I'm not kidding! That's totally antiquated! Also in the NYC Subway, you can still buy your Metrocard at the "token booth", though PATH stations only have TVM's, no ticket agents. MTA's Penn and Grand Central Stations have TVM's and conventional staffed ticket windows, which both serve their purpose.

And SemperFidelis, 1950's, 60's and 70's rock-and-roll is where it's at good buddy. Always was and always will be for me anyway! LOL

And sorry if I was hard on you, Head End View. Your post just sounded exactly, and I mean exactly, like the kind of thing I always find myself saying to people so I had to comment.

Head-end View wrote: BTW, if you think SEPTA is bad, you should see Boston's MBTA where they don't even have ticket windows or TVM's at many commuter-rail stations and you buy your ticket at the candy store down the street. I'm not kidding!

Though you can buy your ticket through a smartphone. At this point about a third or so of MBTA CR tickets and passes are sold that way.