Why is Wawa expansion so slow and costly??

Yea, its not in too good shape. There defiantly is work to be done.

http://www.septa.org/about/board/pdf/mi ... 3-2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To URS Corporation, for Amendment No. 6, which provides additional construction-related services (via transfer from Phase A to Phase B) and various credits for the SEPTA - Elwyn to Wawa Service Restoration Project, for a net no increase in cost, with the total contract price, including all amendments to date, remaining at an amount not to exceed $10,023,985.

Apparently, work is resuming on the Wawa extension soon, even though according to the FY 2015 Capital Budget Plan, construction isn't supposed to resume until 2017.

Where is this yard supposed to be constructed? Wawa? Lenni?

I just hope that nothing is built on top of the Chester Creek/Octoraro ROW at Wawa.

SCB2525 wrote:Where is this yard supposed to be constructed? Wawa? Lenni?

Lenni.

I'm really glad they are extending the line to a station with no nearby population center.... Why aren't they just going all the way to west chester.. why this odd intermediate "track to nowhere"?

25Hz wrote:I'm really glad they are extending the line to a station with no nearby population center.... Why aren't they just going all the way to west chester.. why this odd intermediate "track to nowhere"?

SEPTA management thinks that trains shouldn't serve population centers and will oppose such ideas at all cost

Population centers abandoned by SEPTA:
-West Chester
- Quakertown
- Reading
- Southampton
- Newtown

And in the process of doing so, be sure every penny of funding is redirected to fruitless projects to ensure nothing remains to serve un-served population centers

25Hz wrote:I'm really glad they are extending the line to a station with no nearby population center.... Why aren't they just going all the way to west chester.. why this odd intermediate "track to nowhere"?

You sir must have never been on Baltimore Pike or 452 during either rush period. You'd change your tune quickly if you've ever had to sit through that mess.

ekt8750 wrote:

25Hz wrote:I'm really glad they are extending the line to a station with no nearby population center.... Why aren't they just going all the way to west chester.. why this odd intermediate "track to nowhere"?

You sir must have never been on Baltimore Pike or 452 during either rush period. You'd change your tune quickly if you've ever had to sit through that mess.

WestChester, OTOH, would generate traffic the other 20 hours a day and still serve wawa (or at least the other 14 hours they might run service

Hacker wrote:Population centers abandoned by SEPTA:
-West Chester
- Quakertown
- Reading
- Southampton
- Newtown

And in the process of doing so, be sure every penny of funding is redirected to fruitless projects to ensure nothing remains to serve un-served population centers

phoenixville and pottstown as well

25Hz wrote:Why aren't they just going all the way to west chester.. why this odd intermediate "track to nowhere"?

In the "West Chester SEPTA Stop" thread, people have stated that Chesco government isn't interested in paying for rail service to West Chester. Wawa is in Delco. And much as I'd like to see rail service to it, the DVRPC document cited in that thread shows that the bus routes radiating out from West Chester and Cheyney have negligible ridership except for the buses that go from the two colleges to Philadelphia and Chester, and to Exton. If the principal ridership is a few hundred college students, that might not warrant an extension of a rail line, especially if those students can't afford rail fares and will continue to use the bus.

loufah wrote: In the "West Chester SEPTA Stop" thread, people have stated that Chesco government isn't interested in paying for rail service to West Chester. Wawa is in Delco. And much as I'd like to see rail service to it, the DVRPC document cited in that thread shows that the bus routes radiating out from West Chester and Cheyney have negligible ridership except for the buses that go from the two colleges to Philadelphia and Chester, and to Exton. If the principal ridership is a few hundred college students, that might not warrant an extension of a rail line, especially if those students can't afford rail fares and will continue to use the bus.

There are 15,000 students, 18,000 residents, and the highest population density in the suburbs (yes, it's just a tad higher than norristown and upper darby). the reality is the "chesco government" schtick is from the 1980's. Chester county is being told by SEPTA that it's a bad idea, as far as I can tell, SEPTA wants to force everyone into exton. I'd argue that the poor performance of the bus routes is an ineffective argument against service. It simply shows that the current septa service isn't meeting the standards of the residents who live there, the students who go to school there, or the people who work there. the 104 to the el takes about 80 minutes to get downtown (sometimes more). all it says is that people in west chester are not tolerant of that kind of service nor are they interested in taking the bus newtown or upper darby. the 92 is just awful and a poor connector to the rail service at west chester. it meanders all over hell's creation between Paoli and West chester, then loops back and goes to the exton mall (which is not the draw that King of Prussia is). West chester is a wonderful place but it's being choked off by poor transportation decisions by local "leaders."
Delco used to be part of chester county. the number of riders to be picked up in west chester dwarfs wawa (all of whome must drive). the fact that no serious analyses has been done on septa's part shows a lack of integrity.

One of he problems with extending rail service to West Chester is the alignment. There are so many curves that I don't see that transit time from WC to Media could ever be made much better than about 30 minutes, which I think was about the scheduled time when the service last operated (I don't have a schedule from that period handy). Two morning expresses today take 41 and 46 minutes, respectively, from Elwyn to Suburban Station. If another train, now starting from Media, started instead from Elwyn 4 minutes earlier, it would take 40 minutes. Adding 25 minutes or so to that produces a journey time of 65 to 75 minutes. If you factor in the greater ease of distribution provided by the El in Center City, the total journey time is just about a wash compared to 104 + El. To accomplish this would require a thorough rebuilding of the trackage south of Elwyn (or Wawa, if they're going to do that anyway), post-Chatsworth signaling requirements, and ADA-compliant stations. To make the service attractive it would be necessary to run express north of Media, with very few intermediate stops (maybe just Swarthmore?) between Media and University City. One has to consider whether the amount of money necessary could be more productively spent elsewhere, assuming it could be found at all.

ExCon90 wrote:One of he problems with extending rail service to West Chester is the alignment. There are so many curves that I don't see that transit time from WC to Media could ever be made much better than about 30 minutes, which I think was about the scheduled time when the service last operated (I don't have a schedule from that period handy). Two morning expresses today take 41 and 46 minutes, respectively, from Elwyn to Suburban Station. If another train, now starting from Media, started instead from Elwyn 4 minutes earlier, it would take 40 minutes. Adding 25 minutes or so to that produces a journey time of 65 to 75 minutes. If you factor in the greater ease of distribution provided by the El in Center City, the total journey time is just about a wash compared to 104 + El. To accomplish this would require a thorough rebuilding of the trackage south of Elwyn (or Wawa, if they're going to do that anyway), post-Chatsworth signaling requirements, and ADA-compliant stations. To make the service attractive it would be necessary to run express north of Media, with very few intermediate stops (maybe just Swarthmore?) between Media and University City. One has to consider whether the amount of money necessary could be more productively spent elsewhere, assuming it could be found at all.

that's just it, nobody actually knows. DVPRC estimated it at about an hour which is what I think it was "back in the day." it's mp 27.5. there really aren't any similar population centers on SEPTA owned rail lines with existing catenary infrastructure a mere 6 miles from a planned extension. it just doesn't exist. DVPRC's overly conservative estimates had the extension (with poor headways) adding a third of the ridership to the line which seems close. SEPTA could use more express service. the money seems better spent here than on high level platforms for stations that few use. What I think should happen is an honest look at west chester service. I mean, running a bus to exton to connect to a train that takes 55 minutes to get to center city isn't terribly good either. what is it riders want? obviously they want a one seat ride, but if that's offered, what would it cost to provide the service in an hour? could the bus be sped up with signalized priority and perhaps even dedicated lanes? what about a bus connection to paoli, malvern, or exton combines with regular off peak express schedules? at this point it seems unlikely SEPTA could provide an honest answer but someone should. they're hot to trot about the nhsl but that lines has a far worse farebox recovery and the same number of riders as the current media line. if you were to tank the farebox by lowering fares ridership would rise and thus make RRD extensions perform better on per rider capital costs

You'd have to be able to cut below 30 min by heavy trackwork alone; time between WC and Media was 30-32 min through the 70's with garbage track. Even if you didn't and restored the same schedule, you're looking at 55-65 minutes; not an excessive train ride. Also keep in mind that such a future service would likely not be stopping at Locksley, Glen Mills, Darlington, Lenni, Glen Riddle (though a station should be restored there) or Williamson School. Even Westtown and Cheyney probably wouldn't be restored at least at first.

The fact that its commuter rail and a one-seat ride has a lot to do with its attractiveness over bus to the el. The mentality was much different in the 40's and 50's to cause the trolley and el to be preferred over the train. While the car craze was in vogue, it didn't peak until the 60's and mass transit was still seen as a viable option by the majority. Nowadays most suburbanites wouldn't be caught dead on a bus and 69Th Street terminal is multitudes more seedy.

If WC service were done right, during the peak Elwyn or Media would remain a short-turn terminus and West Chester service would express through or after Media similar to Paoli/Thorndale service (as was done in the past). There's a fair time savings not stopping at the majority of the current Media/Elwyn stations.

Again, why hasn't SEPTA approached Wawa Foods to sponsor the Wawa station? If they can change Patison to "AT&T Station" what is stopping them from getting some bucks that wouldn't even require a name change!! Hell, the faster that station is built the faster Wawa would have an entire LINE named after it.