VRE may bring on legal heat to Amtrak

Averagejoe wrote:VRE service is unlike MBTA or Metrolink. It is a smaller commuter contract and in the vicinity of DC there is plenty of work available for employees that remain with Amtrak ( me!!!). Keolis's problems were brought upon themselves.

VRE studied Metrolink's carrier change and determined by the numbers alone that 70% of the employees working VRE service would remain with a new carrier. We told them last November we were not leaving Amtrak. Keolis continued to believe we would leave and come over to them and they would have a "turn-key" start up service. They gave us until April 30, 2010 to sign a letter of intent. After 2 open house sessions we did not attend, 2 recruiting visits to the outlying yards, and in some cases, VRE personally handing business cards to individuals they got the message.... We were not leaving Amtrak! Keolis did not start hiring people outside of Amtrak until May 1.

We did not stay at Amtrak by threat or coersion. We stayed with Amtrak simply because Keolis cannot guarentee employment past the 5 year contract they have with VRE. We would lose national senority to run 100 miles of track. The proposed contract Keolis offered is no where near historically the raises and benefits offered by Amtrak. For younger employees there will be no chance of promotion into management and very unlikely any chance to move from train service to engine service. There are many more opportunities and benefits of a larger company.

This is not to fault anyone for their personal reasons for working for Keolis. But it is completely unfair to the employees and passengers to hire, train, qualify, and begin service in the span of May 1 to June 28. The people barred from the property were PREVIOUS employees long ago fired from Amtrak.Ones that were allowed to quit Amtrak for past discipline problems were allowed back as Keolis employees. I witnessed the FRA sit in on rules classes by Keolis's request to make sure things were done fairly. Testing and scoring was changed long before Keolis even scheduled their first class. Amtrak even had to deliver the rule books after sitting in an office for over a month because Keolis had not come to pick them up. Amtrak has provided trains in the terminal and instructors to help them qualify. And VRE alledges and wants to sue Amtrak for interfering?

OK Joe you've charged that people that were fired are back on the property before! Do you care to put a name to it? You've already been proved wrong about the management types IIRC - and if the one T&E employee I am thinking of is who you are referring to - wasnt there some financial chicanery involved? The kind that would keep you from passing a background check??????
Face it Joe - and this is the part that pi$$es me off - you guys were lied to by both your union and Amtrak management - it now appears the NJT folks ARE coming (actually some are here) and you guys are out in the cold! I predict that the contract will run the whole 5 years and failing a Chatsworth type incident will be renewed for at least one option year - thanks in part to Joe Boardman pi$$ing all over VRE management and trying to go behind their backs to legislature and misrepresenting facts to the Washington Post (which caught him at it).......
Based on that I predict that Lionel will get the operating contract before Amtrak even gets a sniff again or until all those VRE managers and Pols die off....
Way to go JoeB! really screwed up bidding process and some of the worst customer relations management skills I've ever seen.....
No wonder my guys (and gals) are going away!!!!!! Grrr!!

P.S. You're right I'm getting cranky over this - All the innuendo and heavy breathing on here about how Keolis will fail and how they cheated and beat poor dear innocent Amtrack out of a contract that was Amtrack's just because it always was!

Get over it! Like it or not, and I'm among the nots, Keolis won the bidding process! Amtrak screwed up their bid pure and simple and over charged! Just remember that even if Keolis was beamed up tomorrow Amtrak still wouldn't get the contract, Bombardier would! Amtrak was an also ran in the competition....

The thing Amtrak should be doing now is an honest self criticsim of why they lost and what changes they need to make in their bidding process to keep from being embarassed like this again!

I am not wrong and your answer has been public information for about a year. Amtrak commuter services currently consists of MARC and VRE service shared. VRE's RFP states it wants dedicated management and staff for it's service. Not shared. Last June Amtrak posted 5 jobs for management contingent on the upcoming contract award. This is Amtrak's start up cost. Giving VRE specifically the management and staff they have asked for this time but not in the past 18 years of service. Read the RFP written in black and white. Kinda hard to lie about that....

And the rest of the bidding process.... Amtrak being a government subsidy must bid contracts as a for-profit company. They cannot low-ball a bid just to win. With Keolis's goal of the multi-billion dollar stimulus money for high speed rail they wouldn't mind losing a few million to get their foot in the door of the American market. Amtrak also had to take into account the current union work rules and obligations before they could give an accurate bid. Keolis did not do this and where is their union agreement?

As far as the unions no one has lied. How much or little do you know of what has been offered? Keolis currently has no signed contract with UTU or BLE because they have said what they will offer and that's it. No negotiation. Keolis offers 5% raise to start and cost of living for next 5 years (basically nothing with our state of economy). The unions are trying to keep a competitive workforce with basically equal pay. Several unions currently signed with Amtrak for about a 14.9% raise. And many people will need that raise with the other provisions Keolis is proposing. Like how the extra-board will be called. First in is not first out if you have made your 40 hours for the week. If you make your 40 hours you are by-passed for the person behind you that may not have their 40 hours. Some paid holidays are changing or being lost. There will be next to nothing for relief day work since mechanical people will cut off engines and cars. No more yard crews if a train does not move past the signal out of the yard.

I am not naming names of barred employees. This forum is not their trial.

I have had my problems with Amtrak and some of their direction for over 20 years. And even though I will be going back on the road in 27 days, I would not defend them if I thought they had done wrong in this. Who knows Chucksc... you may even know me?

Averagejoe wrote:I am not wrong and your answer has been public information for about a year. Amtrak commuter services currently consists of MARC and VRE service shared. VRE's RFP states it wants dedicated management and staff for it's service. Not shared. Last June Amtrak posted 5 jobs for management contingent on the upcoming contract award. This is Amtrak's start up cost. Giving VRE specifically the management and staff they have asked for this time but not in the past 18 years of service. Read the RFP written in black and white. Kinda hard to lie about that....

A couple of million bucks for 5 management positions? WTF?????
I think I need to retire from the FEDS and get one of those!
You should probably apply too Joe! a year or two of that and even you could retire! LOL
You do know Keolis hired a managment team also and for a mill or two less don't you?

Averagejoe wrote: And the rest of the bidding process.... Amtrak being a government subsidy must bid contracts as a for-profit company. They cannot low-ball a bid just to win. With Keolis's goal of the multi-billion dollar stimulus money for high speed rail they wouldn't mind losing a few million to get their foot in the door of the American market. Amtrak also had to take into account the current union work rules and obligations before they could give an accurate bid. Keolis did not do this and where is their union agreement?

And I believe there is standard language on any government contract (and them are the rules for VRE since they are subsidized) under the FAR that requires the contractor certify that they are not bidding below cost. If they are bidding below costs then there are your grounds to kill the contract!

FWIW I really don't think Keolis low balled it...
I think Amtrak management/marketing (talk about a contradiction in terms) got greedy and larded the proposal up with lots of pork....

OK and how would they/Keolis have a Union Agreement until they actually had a contract with Union Members on board???
THEN they VOTE and negotiate a Union Contract.... IIRC

BTW, are you are saying that all those NJT and NS and CSX "Layoffees" are coming down and working as SCABS????
Cute! Let me bring my popcorn to that party - as entertainment it ought to be better than the UFC on TV!!!!!
Just as an aside Joe - whose Union do you think is encouraging all those NJT guys to come down here?????
Would that be the same one that claims not to have a contract?????
Hmmmm trash talk one set of members to walk and then recruit another to take their places????
Suspicious minds want to know!

Averagejoe wrote: As far as the unions no one has lied. How much or little do you know of what has been offered? Keolis currently has no signed contract with UTU or BLE because they have said what they will offer and that's it. No negotiation. Keolis offers 5% raise to start and cost of living for next 5 years (basically nothing with our state of economy). The unions are trying to keep a competitive workforce with basically equal pay. Several unions currently signed with Amtrak for about a 14.9% raise. And many people will need that raise with the other provisions Keolis is proposing. Like how the extra-board will be called. First in is not first out if you have made your 40 hours for the week. If you make your 40 hours you are by-passed for the person behind you that may not have their 40 hours. Some paid holidays are changing or being lost. There will be next to nothing for relief day work since mechanical people will cut off engines and cars. No more yard crews if a train does not move past the signal out of the yard.

I am not naming names of barred employees. This forum is not their trial.

Interesting that Keolis is supposedly offering a weaker contract than what you guys already have....

I wonder why all those NJT guys are coming down?????
Isn't their contract supposed to be better than the Amtrak agreement????

I was not trying to "out" the barred employees.
Since it has been alledged on here that Keolis is hiring them I asked that question directly to VRE management!
The answer was not only no but heck no! If that was factualy incorrect there could be consequences.
You know if they are and I and several of my "loudmouthed" fellow passengers find out - we flog the VRE/Keolis folks with it and you wont have to worry about the FRA. since we know several of THEM (FRA) personally there might be a few "citizen" complaints and a FOIA or two....

Averagejoe wrote: I have had my problems with Amtrak and some of their direction for over 20 years. And even though I will be going back on the road in 27 days, I would not defend them if I thought they had done wrong in this. Who knows Chucksc... you may even know me?

I probably do know you -
BTW I'm still really pi$$ed at Amtrak management over letting a slam dunk like this get away....
(you do remember that we passengers responded en mass to Mr. Zehner "suggesting" as strongly as we could that you guys be brought on board don't you?

HokieNav wrote:These are professional companies, not 5 year olds.

Ain't gonna happen.

Perhaps I was wrong. Hopefully neither of the above posters are in management positions.

HokieNav wrote:

HokieNav wrote:These are professional companies, not 5 year olds.

Ain't gonna happen.

Perhaps I was wrong. Hopefully neither of the above posters are in management positions.

Gee aint that the truth!!!

NJTs BLE union leadership has gone above and beyond in trying to find positions for the furloughed employees from NJT. Some went to Amtrak, some went to VRE, some have done other things, and some have been recalled already. But the NJT union has done what they can to get jobs for its former members.....

BTW, not all the NJT guys who went to VRE are new guys who were furloughed, there are a few that have several/many years of service in various positions.

Chuckse, take a chill pill dude, its how the industry is, in freight and passenger service. Freight looses a big customer, and employees that work that region get spread out to other regions and bump other people. Amtrak lost a contract to operate, the employees that worked it are going to bump back to areas where there is still work. IMO, it would be silly to give up Amtrak NATIONWIDE senority for the uncertainty of the new operation, im surprised even one guy stayed.

NOTHING is guaranteed on the railroad. The regular passengers such as yourself might not be happy loosing your favorite conductor, but thats how it is....

HokieNav wrote:

HokieNav wrote:These are professional companies, not 5 year olds.

Ain't gonna happen.

Perhaps I was wrong. Hopefully neither of the above posters are in management positions.

Probably both of us are! I'm a FED and he works for Amtrak!

Jtgshu wrote:

HokieNav wrote:

HokieNav wrote:These are professional companies, not 5 year olds.

Ain't gonna happen.

Perhaps I was wrong. Hopefully neither of the above posters are in management positions.

Gee aint that the truth!!!

NJTs BLE union leadership has gone above and beyond in trying to find positions for the furloughed employees from NJT. Some went to Amtrak, some went to VRE, some have done other things, and some have been recalled already. But the NJT union has done what they can to get jobs for its former members.....

BTW, not all the NJT guys who went to VRE are new guys who were furloughed, there are a few that have several/many years of service in various positions.

Chuckse, take a chill pill dude, its how the industry is, in freight and passenger service. Freight looses a big customer, and employees that work that region get spread out to other regions and bump other people. Amtrak lost a contract to operate, the employees that worked it are going to bump back to areas where there is still work. IMO, it would be silly to give up Amtrak NATIONWIDE senority for the uncertainty of the new operation, im surprised even one guy stayed.

NOTHING is guaranteed on the railroad. The regular passengers such as yourself might not be happy loosing your favorite conductor, but thats how it is....

Grrr! You're right! I still don'tike it...

I would have probably been less bent out of shape if there had been a little less trolling by some folks on here who sound like they stand to gain if it fails....

After all as I see it, Amtrak was just as much to blame as VRE - Keolis is just trying to tap into the "lucrative" north american commuter market...

I certainly hope you mean me chuck? I don't want it to fail as a friend if mine who was laid off at njt took employment with Keolis. I'm angry that Amtrak lost the contract but I could really care less about who operates what.

There will be next to nothing for relief day work since mechanical people will cut off engines and cars. No more yard crews if a train does not move past the signal out of the yard.

Mechanical making up trains? Did I read that right?

BTW, when did NJT furlough Engineers?

RogerOverOutRR wrote:

There will be next to nothing for relief day work since mechanical people will cut off engines and cars. No more yard crews if a train does not move past the signal out of the yard.

Mechanical making up trains? Did I read that right?

BTW, when did NJT furlough Engineers?

May 27th 2010 Give or take a few days.

Mechanical Dept. making up trains is the way the contract between SFRTA (Tri Rail) and Bombardier works. It's a shame that what might have been a nice job opportunity running VRE trains has turned into such a nightmare. I'd like to see what kind of reception the folks who will operate VRE trains are in for. My guess is that everything will be made more difficult. The buck will be passed and passed and those crews will go through hell with everything being dropped in their laps (what else is new!). Lets all hope that they can handle the unnecessary stress and BS they are sure to be handed. Regarding testing and scores my understanding is that there is more than one test. One is supposedly relates to pretty much terminal/yard assignments another a more detailed road exam,(I've never encountered testing in this manner it could be true). This is the one I've been told is being given to new hires and the success rate at least initially wasn't good. That apparently was an Amtrak choice. Keolis is probably using VRE as a loss leader to be able to bid on any future high speed corridors. That's where the real money is. The greater shame is that US tax dollars are going to a corporation outside the US. It's just another example of these transit agencies pimping then washing their hands. Get ready for them to stand back fold their arms and arrogantly issue unachievable,unrealistic orders. Ask the guy who was working for a contractor on the Deep Water Horizon what it was like trying to say no to BP. These are sad days, best of luck to all who sign on for this little adventure.

So I am an Assistant Conductor currently for the Long Island Rail Road. I am on the bottom of the roster and there have been lots of talk about layoffs. I heard VRE/Keolis was hiring so I went down there recently and had an interview and they offered me employment. Now I am not sure that if I move down to Virginia I will even have a job in 5 years due to the Keolis contract. Should I leave the LIRR and take a gamble with Keolis or stay home with my family and stick it out with the LIRR? THIS IS KILLING ME!

I would say your chances with LIRR are a hell of a lot better than at VRE.
Even if your layed off, the recall rate will be fairly fast, since on a huge roster like LIRR's Conductor/trainman roster, the natural atrition will be way more than than the amount of people layed off.

I seriously hope you decide to stay. In the least return when recalled. Don't be seduced away from a great future for a quick rise in seniority on a small roster, one with no guarantee of being there in a few years. I was torn in much the same manner opting to stay where I am (even though there was solid reason to leave), the gamble is far too great, and unfortunately I think it's going to be a rough go for those who do go. Best of luck.