Viewliner II Delivery/Production

bostontrainguy wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote:
So in short, Amtrak already has an "Econosnooze"; it's called the Roomette and is available Systemwide.

You can say that but in reality Amtrak's sleepers are pretty damn expensive..

From Holiday Inn Express Boca Raton--

Mr. Trainguy, Amtrak has a mandate to run a proprietary business, and not be a welfare state program. Towards that end, they have initiated demand pricing and rather than operate Sleepers at giveaway rates, they blank 'lines and maintain peak season fares. Trains have the flexibility to do that, airlines, since you can't cut a 737 in hslf, do not.

electricron wrote:

jcpatten wrote:Queensland (Australia) Rail's Spirit of Queensland has the Railbed concept - a large seat (looks much like an airline's first class seat) that folds into a bed. There are no partitions, so the whole car is open and you get to hear everyone's snoring. It's the only sleeping accomodations on the train. Other Queensland Rail overnight trains have normal sleeper rooms.

FYI, there’s plenty of photos of the Spirit of Queensland train at Google.
Yes, they have an example worth looking at closely. Their normal four abreast seating coach has 13 rows of seats, 52 seats total in the car. Their lay flat seats have 7 rows of seats, where the first and last have two seats, and five rows having three seats, 19 seats in total. Australian passenger cars are usually around 80 feet in length vs 85 feet in the USA. So it might be possible to squeeze in one additional row of seats and therefore have 3 more seats in a Viewliner, reaching 22 seats in total.
But check out the photos of the aisle where the three abreast lay flat seats are located, there’s no way anyone could suggest that meets the 30 inches width mandated by the FRA regulations. So, meeting FRA requirements, at most lay flat seats you could squeeze into a Viewliners would be 8 rows of two seats, 16 seats in total. That’s just one more seat than rooms and roomettes in the existing Viewliners. Amtrak would have to charge a higher fare for the lay flat seats than they do for rooms and roomettes to break even financially.

You are way off here. A Viewliner roomette is 42" wide. Delta One is 44" wide with 21" seats.
https://thepointsguy.com/2017/10/pros-a ... one-suite/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Assuming an Amtrak version would be about the same as an existing roomette, you can get four passengers across especially with the ability to slightly taper the foot end of the bed as it goes under the "armrest" of the suite in front of it.

Using the same dimensions as existing roomettes (6' 8" long) you get approximately 10 room lengths for a total of about 67' usable linear space per car (after leaving out the vestibule, a dual restroom module, coffee machine and shower module* - no attendant room needed).

That would probably leave space for at least 9 rows of four seats or 36 happy paying customers!

*Maybe eliminate the shower for more space?

bulk88 wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:the amfleet bodies dont have the vertical space i think to make good use of that style planning. They could call it, a slumberliner??? ViewSlumber?

throw a mattress on an amfleets luggage rack and have an instant economy sleeper

I am not going to mention who where what or when but humans do fit in the luggage racks of amfleets and can lay flat up there.

I used to lay up there to replace the ballasts on cars in SSYD and scare the crap out of the cleaners, because id need to have the lights turned off to do it.

bostontrainguy wrote:

electricron wrote:

jcpatten wrote:Queensland (Australia) Rail's Spirit of Queensland has the Railbed concept - a large seat (looks much like an airline's first class seat) that folds into a bed. There are no partitions, so the whole car is open and you get to hear everyone's snoring. It's the only sleeping accomodations on the train. Other Queensland Rail overnight trains have normal sleeper rooms.

FYI, there’s plenty of photos of the Spirit of Queensland train at Google.
Yes, they have an example worth looking at closely. Their normal four abreast seating coach has 13 rows of seats, 52 seats total in the car. Their lay flat seats have 7 rows of seats, where the first and last have two seats, and five rows having three seats, 19 seats in total. Australian passenger cars are usually around 80 feet in length vs 85 feet in the USA. So it might be possible to squeeze in one additional row of seats and therefore have 3 more seats in a Viewliner, reaching 22 seats in total.
But check out the photos of the aisle where the three abreast lay flat seats are located, there’s no way anyone could suggest that meets the 30 inches width mandated by the FRA regulations. So, meeting FRA requirements, at most lay flat seats you could squeeze into a Viewliners would be 8 rows of two seats, 16 seats in total. That’s just one more seat than rooms and roomettes in the existing Viewliners. Amtrak would have to charge a higher fare for the lay flat seats than they do for rooms and roomettes to break even financially.

You are way off here. A Viewliner roomette is 42" wide. Delta One is 44" wide with 21" seats.
https://thepointsguy.com/2017/10/pros-a ... one-suite/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Assuming an Amtrak version would be about the same as an existing roomette, you can get four passengers across especially with the ability to slightly taper the foot end of the bed as it goes under the "armrest" of the suite in front of it.

Using the same dimensions as existing roomettes (6' 8" long) you get approximately 10 room lengths for a total of about 67' usable linear space per car (after leaving out the vestibule, a dual restroom module, coffee machine and shower module* - no attendant room needed).

That would probably leave space for at least 9 rows of four seats or 36 happy paying customers!

*Maybe eliminate the shower for more space?

Interesting arrangement,and not quite the same used by the Spirit of Queensland. Trying to make the Delta setup easier to understand using x as 21 inch squares.
xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx
—-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx—-
—————————————Aisle—————————————
—-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx—-
xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx

That’s 34 seats, not 36 seats.
21 x 4 = 84 inches, about 7 feet.
9 x 7 feet = 63 feet, leaving 22 feet in the car for restrooms and vestibules.
With the seats not aligned abreast of one another, it would be extremely difficult to hold a conservation with a neighbor, short of standing up and speaking to each other over the partitions.

It will only have a higher capacity of the existing Viewliners by just 4 passengers. The seat or bed will be limited to be just 21inches wide. I’m not sure how passengers get to the seats further from the aisle. The Delta photos examples had two aisles, on both sides of the central section seats.it wasn’t obvious how they handled the window sections. Access to the seats further away from the central aisle might mean placing gaps between the seats along the aisle, which will decrease the number of those seats....

ApproachMedium wrote:

bulk88 wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:the amfleet bodies dont have the vertical space i think to make good use of that style planning. They could call it, a slumberliner??? ViewSlumber?

throw a mattress on an amfleets luggage rack and have an instant economy sleeper

I am not going to mention who where what or when but humans do fit in the luggage racks of amfleets and can lay flat up there.

I used to lay up there to replace the ballasts on cars in SSYD and scare the crap out of the cleaners, because id need to have the lights turned off to do it.

I can't tell you the number of times I've been tempted to do that on a relative empty train.

Of course my fear is in the middle of the night someone would board and toss their luggage up there!

electricron wrote:

jcpatten wrote:Queensland (Australia) Rail's Spirit of Queensland has the Railbed concept - a large seat (looks much like an airline's first class seat) that folds into a bed. There are no partitions, so the whole car is open and you get to hear everyone's snoring. It's the only sleeping accomodations on the train. Other Queensland Rail overnight trains have normal sleeper rooms.

FYI, there’s plenty of photos of the Spirit of Queensland train at Google.
Yes, they have an example worth looking at closely. Their normal four abreast seating coach has 13 rows of seats, 52 seats total in the car. Their lay flat seats have 7 rows of seats, where the first and last have two seats, and five rows having three seats, 19 seats in total. Australian passenger cars are usually around 80 feet in length vs 85 feet in the USA. So it might be possible to squeeze in one additional row of seats and therefore have 3 more seats in a Viewliner, reaching 22 seats in total.
But check out the photos of the aisle where the three abreast lay flat seats are located, there’s no way anyone could suggest that meets the 30 inches width mandated by the FRA regulations. So, meeting FRA requirements, at most lay flat seats you could squeeze into a Viewliners would be 8 rows of two seats, 16 seats in total. That’s just one more seat than rooms and roomettes in the existing Viewliners. Amtrak would have to charge a higher fare for the lay flat seats than they do for rooms and roomettes to break even financially.

As far as the width of the aisle is concerned you need to remember that QR is narrow gauge. The difference of our wider cars might just be enough for the 30 inch FRA requirement .... or maybe not.

From Holiday Inn Express Boca Raton (#52 tonight and "Voyage 24")

From a recent "Middle Seat" Wall Street Journal column, I learned that the lay flat seat modules used by the global air carriers cost some 100K each. No wonder United has, after a splashy rollout last year and delivery of about a dozen 777-300ER's configured with the new Polaris seating (those back in "The Gulag" pay for it all with 3-4-3 seating in place of 3-3-3).

So why should Amtrak subject itself to cost of "lie flat" seating, and likely not exceed the revenue yield of a Sleeper?

For those who used to look forward to slack travel seasons and the chance to "sleep on the cheap" on Amtrak, they have now decided to cut consists (I have observed seven car Chiefs and Zephyrs) to maintain fare levels. Why they haven't gone one step further and whacked the Diner and Sightseer at least from the Chief and put five of the "unassigned" 370XX Diner Lounges to work escapes me. They'd be able to save a little on gas (running with one unit is a BNSF no-no).

OK, have we a report that Mont and Nash are on the move? Perhaps such will get us back on topic around here.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:OK, have we a report that Mont and Nash are on the move? Perhaps such will get us back on topic around here.

Just like there was a debate over what type of food service car should be built as a Viewliner, there is a debate over what type of sleeper car should be built. We have even debated if and how many bicycle racks should be installed in the new Viewliner baggage cars. Whereas you might be more interested in delivery of the new Viewliners, some are more interested in production. If this debate had been introduced under a new thread, there would be a good chance it would have been moved into this thread anyways.
I don't mind the debate wherever it ends up.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:
From a recent "Middle Seat" Wall Street Journal column, I learned that the lay flat seat modules used by the global air carriers cost some 100K each.

I don't doubt that is true, but a huge part of the cost of aircraft fittings is insurance, certification, testing, et al... paperwork. Given a lower spec for Amtrak (Polaris is really top-end) and an earth-bound life, a pod probably costs much less. For example, the at-seat tv/entertainment, the power recline, the wood trim, all that is unnecessary.

One other thing I think we're missing here - we are assuming the average revenue realized from two pods is equal to that of one roommette with two occupants. It may be higher, it may be lower.

I’m still trying to get a sense of how many lay-flat seats would fit in a railroad coach. Cathay Pacific’s Boeing 777-300ER is about 19’ across the cabin with 1-2-1 lay-flat business seating; by doubling the length and halving the width to 1-1 seating in a 9’ 6” body (about the width of an Amfleet or Viewliner) I think we would get a good comparison.

Does anyone here know how long their 777-300ER business cabins are, or how much each seat module overlaps the next? I can’t find a scale or hard numbers on either, which would allow us to make a head-to-head comparison.

February Railpace had two photos of a Viewliner II Bag-Dorm being moved at CAF. Is there any chance that some of these may be released before all the diners are done?

Didn't know these things were out there: Although the dorm rooms are at the bedroom end, I'm assuming they are roomettes behind those windows. These cars should really help the bottom line by opening up high-value revenue space.

I think that would be the prototype, production has been reduced to 10 , and not started yet.

bostontrainguy wrote:Didn't know these things were out there:

Bag Dorm.jpg

Although the dorm rooms are at the bedroom end, I'm assuming they are roomettes behind those windows. These cars should really help the bottom line by opening up high-value revenue space.

That is almost certainly a photo from, I want to say 2015? when CAF "released" one of each car type for testing.

None are in the wild. And Trust me, Albany (well Rennselaer to be pedantic) is certainly NOT that green this time of the year.

And yes, I'd almost guarantee those are roomettes and not bedrooms.

As for them releasing and bag-dorms before the remaining diners, I tend to doubt it. Switching up the production line would probably cost money and time. Something I bet they want to avoid.

On the other hand, if Amtrak really doesn't want to restore any more diners other than the LSL for now, starting to get some cars that could increase revenue MIGHT be an idea. But I highly doubt it.

I can confirm, as i have actually been inside the bag dorm, that it is all roomettes and NO bedrooms. The door from the bag part is a straight hall to the door into the vestibule.