The End Of Trackless Trolleys in Philadelphia?

Hi. I live in the Boston area and ride the trackless trolleys daily. I have visited Philly a few times. I keep hearing conflicting information. I know Septa voted to suspend operation of the trackless for a year... recently I heard they were putting them back on for Earth Day, and on the SEPTA website they posted a notice to manufacturers for interest for buying 50 new trackless trolleys, responding by April 8th. Now, however, at the end of April I have read that SEPTA employees have been using a "cherry picker" and have been removing the wires at Bridge-Pratt. The SEPTA employee said the trackless are gone for good, and SEPTA is ordering CNG buses. If that is true, what a great idea! Replace zero emission vehicles with noisy vehicles that pollute. If they are anything like new CNG buses the MBTA purchased, they will be VERY loud inside and outside, and vibrate. Does any one know for sure what the status of the trackless trolley are?

Actually, I think you have it backwards. They were just stringing brand new wire at Frankford, and at least one Trackless Trolley has reapeared outside the Frankford Depot (they had been stored at Midvale and Southern while construction of the new Frankford Trans Center was underway).

However, the main Rt 66 platforms are still in a construction zone next to the original headhouse. Whenh work there is done, the 66 will move to its rightful platform, and theoretically switch back to Trackless Service.

That coach is there (874) for testing once everything is complete. They are suppose to overhaul the other coaches to hold them over till new ones arrive.

I've gotten complaints from other members about this thread being off topic. I realize that this is a 'crossover' topic for bus and rail fans, but I really think that we need to keep to RAIL operations pertaining to SEPTA.

Locked for now. I am open to comments, so please PM me.

After looking around the site, especially at the MBTA forum, I think that closing out talk about some bus operations for SEPTA would turn away people who also talk about the rail operations of SEPTA.

While this is the Railroad Network, I think that a small amount of bus talk should be permitted. This includes trackless operations for SEPTA.

Keep up the good conversations guys! :D

Inclusion of the trackless trolley in railfan discussions has always been somewhat problematic, because of the hybrid nature of those vehicles ( and the fact that they don't run on rails and really are electric buses) I note that the Philadelphia Trolley Tracks web site has a section on the trackless trolleys, and several traction histories ( including Middleton's "Time of the Trolley") have photos of trackless trolleys.

I suspect that the reason for this that the trackless trolley was actually developed prior to the developement of the gasoline, and later diesel, bus, and also that anything that isn't a diesel bus draws some interest for traction/rail fans.

In spite of the fact that they look like buses, I'd put my 2 cents in favor of keeping ETB threads in the forum. Part of my interest in rail transit is from an efficiency and environmental perspective, so I'm in favor of anything that runs off electricity. Don't care whether it comes from a third rail or overhead. It's less cool that they run on rubber tires, but if the alternative is a diesel bus, which way are ya gonna go?

Of course, eliminating anything on rubber knocks the blocks out from under discussions of the Montréal and Paris Métros, and saying "electric, non-diesel" can open you up to batteries, flywheels and fuel cells, so I really don't know where to draw the line.

Very cool...glad to see the thread open again. TT's certainly seem worthy of discussion, if for no other reason than they are an increasingly rare species. I get to ride those classic 1976-model Flyers in Boston every day, and they are certainly unique. They still act a bit like old streetcars, with the whine of the traction motors and the air compressors thumping under the floor.

As nice as they are for the traction fan, the regular riders will be glad to see them go as our new Neoplans are supposed to enter service soon. Are there any more details out there reagrding TT orders for SEPTA? Capital cost is a huge issue for these creatures. The Neoplans for Boston are costing over $900,000 per TT, more than twice the price of a diesel or CNG bus. It would ahve been nice to see Boston and Philly be able to order at the same time in order to design and build one vehicle. There's no real reason for these to cost so much, other than the fact that they are custom orders.

I'll vouch for the noise factor on the new CNG's, although, if you're in Boston, the noisiest thing I've heard is the LMA Shuttle buses (a private shuttle operator). These are Ultra Low Emission Diesel buses -- these are very loud -- they make the new CNG offerings seem quiet.

eliminating anything on rubber knocks the blocks out from under discussions of the Montréal and Paris Métros, and saying "electric, non-diesel" can open you up to batteries, flywheels and fuel cells, so I really don't know where to draw the line

Well...we can try steering columns The Métros referred to thereof are indeed either rail-based or use a rail-like guideway...

But yeah, the TT is a "missing link" between the streetcar and the much-maligned diesel bus (and even going way back, passengers preferred the streetcars, so it wasn't a case of the passenger coming first)...cities like San Francisco, with their dense TT network, hopefully don't take them for granted (I don't think) but other places like Edmonton, Canada seem to be divesting them (which is IMHO a bad move).

Philly would be wise to 'net' the downtown area and make virtually all CC local busses (the ones that do not leave the CC area) TT. I can't tell you how many times I have been shopping or wandering the downtown with friends to have our conversations drowned out or out dinning disrupted by a noisy bus rolling by. Not to mention the health and enviromental impact of busses.

Nothing is worse for an outdoor area than a bus.

Won't the federal gov't fund most of a conversion is SEPTA elected to do so? Wouldn't there be grants and tax breaks for such a conversion?

Irish Chieftain wrote:But yeah, the TT is a "missing link" between the streetcar and the much-maligned diesel bus (and even going way back, passengers preferred the streetcars, so it wasn't a case of the passenger coming first)...cities like San Francisco, with their dense TT network, hopefully don't take them for granted ...

Well SF has a coupla particular circumstances that are favorable to trackless operation: 1) the hills (electric traction is better for starting on hills) and 2) the city owns a hydroelectric dam somewhere up in the Sierras and gets its electricity more or less for free.

What is a trackless trolley? I visit Philly often and the only trolley I've seen is the 69th street trolley and as far as I know it runs on rails. Where does this trackless trolley run?

A trackless trolley is basically a bus that is powered by two overhead wires instead of a diesel motor. They have two trolley poles on the roof for current collection. Picture of a trackless: http://www.phillytrolley.org/IMAGES/PHIL246.JPG

Links:
http://www.phillytrolley.org/trackles.html
http://www.phillytrolley.org/trackless_index.html
Former trackless routes in Philadelphia are:

Route 29 Crosstown on Tasker and Morris streets in South Philadelphia
Route 59 Arrot Terminal to Bell's Corner on Castor Ave in Northeast Philadelphia
Route 66 from FTC to City Line on Frankford Ave in Northeast Philadelphia
Route 75 from Arrott Terminal to Wayne Junction on Wyoming Ave in North Philadelphia
Route 79 Crosstown on Snyder Ave in South Philadelphia

Tommy Rails wrote:I visit Philly often and the only trolley I've seen is the 69th street trolley...

Philadelphia has 5 currently active lines, all part of the subway-surface system that runs from City Hall underground out to access portals west of 30th St. and then on into various parts of West Philadelphia where they operate as traditional streetcars. The fact that the cars run underground is often cited as the main reason SEPTA hasn't bustituted them since even they can't figure out how to put a diesel bus in a tunnel. These lines all use Kawasaki cars acquired around 1981. There's a lot of information at http://www.phillytrolley.org/routes.html

In addition the city government has forced SEPTA to restore service on the Route 15 line which runs mostly on Girard Avenue. This line is supposed to go back in service sometime this year (we hope!) using rebuilt PCC cars called PCC-IIs. Pix at http://www.phillytrolley.org/girardavenue.html and other related links.

There are two interurban trolley lines from 69th Street. They serve Delaware County; the 101 runs to Media and the 102 to Sharon Hill. Most of the trackage is grade-separated, with some street running near the outer ends of the lines. See http://www.phillytrolley.org/redarrow.html.

There is also the Route 100 which is rather erroneously called a trolley even though (at least on this board) there's pretty much a consensus that it's a railroad. It uses 3rd rail power collection, standard (4' 8.5" / 1435 mm) gauge track that's fully grade-separated and railroad-type signalling. There's more at http://www.phillytrolley.org/philwest.html.

Sadly/obscenely/stupidly/pick your pejorative there are no active plans to restore service to any city other lines that SEPTA has bustituted in recent years. Between National City Lines semi-criminal elimination of rail lines in the 1950s and SEPTA's fixation with running a bus-only transit system, much of the "trolley city" that characterized Philadelphia is gone for the forseeable future.

Tommy Rails wrote: I visit Philly often and the only trolley I've seen is the 69th street trolley...

Photos of subway-surface trolleys (yes, trolleys with trolley wire and trolley poles)

http://community.webshots.com/photo/143 ... 4004oThmSP

and Media/Sharon Hill LRV's (out of 69th Street) from a railfan day two weeks ago are here:

http://community.webshots.com/album/143216368mpURQj/0