Steam allowed on NS tracks?

atsf sp wrote:I would think they would allow the trains but look at the engines you mentioned:3985, 844 = UP, 4449 = SP, 261 = Milwaukee. These engines never operated in that territory and even east of the Mississippi. But UP 3985 actually did make a run out east painted in Clinchfield colors. It ran to Easton, PA. Strausburg runs out to the Keystone Corridor. So they have allowed trains to run on their tracks, and just would not be acurate to have alot of these steamers out of their own territory.

Let's look at it this way.

I know all steamers, besides UP 844 and 3985, are being run by volunteer organizations. I see the limitations.

Why can't the UP be the ambassadors of live steam across the country? They obviously want to keep it alive and I give them credit for that. No other Class 1 railroad is doing so. I'm assuming they can afford to come out EAST beyond their tracks at least every 5 or so years? People in my area would be thrilled to see or ride behind 3985 or 844. There are MANY steam fans beyond their territory. Surely there can't be that many legal, monetary, or corporate limitations to go 500 or more miles. Is it just too much to expect from a 65 year old locomotive? Is NS or CSX afraid of a boiler explosion? Give me a break! Everyone knows these engines are meticulously maintained.

Am I missing something, or expecting too much?

Out here in Oregon we last got a visit from 3985 in 2005 and from 844 in 2007, but as I recall before that 3985's last visit was in 1995, and 844's was when it was painted 2-tone grey, so late 80s or early 90s. And Portland is on the Union Pacific. I don't expect to see either one out here again for several years, though I'd enjoy being wrong about that. You ask "Why not?" but Union Pacific would ask "Why?" 844 and 3985 operate for the benefit of Union Pacific, and they do that mission best on UP rails, and UP has a lot of rails for them to run on. Its logistically easier to run on your own tracks than on someone else's. And for NS, there has to be something in it for them to let another major railroad run their public-relations-friendly steam locomotives on their tracks. It would take someone stepping forward with a really good cause and/or a lot of money for it to happen. Since that's not likely, you'll just have wait until 844 or 3985 is near Chicago or St. Louis and make the trip.

A more likely scenario for you to see steam come to you would seem to be NS hosting an engine from the Ohio Central Steam Program. Their fleet includes a 4-8-4. Anyone know how likely that possibility is?

How many of the OC engines are in operating condition? I know a lot are being overhauled.
And CP has a steam engine on their roster.

westr wrote:Out here in Oregon we last got a visit from 3985 in 2005 and from 844 in 2007, but as I recall before that 3985's last visit was in 1995, and 844's was when it was painted 2-tone grey, so late 80s or early 90s. And Portland is on the Union Pacific. I don't expect to see either one out here again for several years, though I'd enjoy being wrong about that. You ask "Why not?" but Union Pacific would ask "Why?" 844 and 3985 operate for the benefit of Union Pacific, and they do that mission best on UP rails, and UP has a lot of rails for them to run on. Its logistically easier to run on your own tracks than on someone else's. And for NS, there has to be something in it for them to let another major railroad run their public-relations-friendly steam locomotives on their tracks. It would take someone stepping forward with a really good cause and/or a lot of money for it to happen. Since that's not likely, you'll just have wait until 844 or 3985 is near Chicago or St. Louis and make the trip.

A more likely scenario for you to see steam come to you would seem to be NS hosting an engine from the Ohio Central Steam Program. Their fleet includes a 4-8-4. Anyone know how likely that possibility is?

Not a likely situation. A friend of mine(who I talked to after starting this thread) knows someone who works for NS on the management side. He talked to him a few days ago. He asked him about steam running on NS tracks. The response was basically hell no, insurance reasons, too many foamers etc, etc. People call, e-mail NS about it but their stance is unwavering.

Maybe some good news for you Stash: SP 4449 is to attend TrainFestival 2009 in Owosso, Michigan on July 24-26. Its not quite Ohio, but its pretty close.

Is it really an insurance issue, or does NS simply suffer from "Frictophobia" (fear of friction bearings hotboxing and messing up rails)?

westr wrote:Maybe some good news for you Stash: SP 4449 is to attend TrainFestival 2009 in Owosso, Michigan on July 24-26. Its not quite Ohio, but its pretty close.

But I have read that SP 4449 will not be allowed to operate under its own power on NS tracks. Proves one thing for sure, NS hates steam just like when they decided to end the N&W steam holdout at the merger. Engines are allowed on the tracks, just without steam.

atsf sp wrote:

westr wrote:Maybe some good news for you Stash: SP 4449 is to attend TrainFestival 2009 in Owosso, Michigan on July 24-26. Its not quite Ohio, but its pretty close.

But I have read that SP 4449 will not be allowed to operate under its own power on NS tracks. Proves one thing for sure, NS hates steam just like when they decided to end the N&W steam holdout at the merger. Engines are allowed on the tracks, just without steam.

Slight correction. When NW merged with SOUTHERN, it was SOUTHERN that had the steam program from 1964-65 until merger in '82!!!!! Because Mssrs Claytor (Robert and Graham) were steam fans, it continued until the steam enthusiasts ultimately retired. It was a couple of "incidents" that got them thinking, "WAAAAAL, maybe this isn't such a good idea".

From the standpoint of an insider (I hired on Southern in '78), the steam program WAS a big nuisance! While it was kind of neat to work with them (at times) and see how it "was" back when, it got very aggravating. If you were called to work a yard or desk job and a steam train was on the district or in the terminal, it would practically shut down the yard. As a clerk or Train Order clerk, the phones would be ringing off the hook and you could not move freight, process waybills, or build pig trains for the commotion. We were expected to get our normal work done in spite of the ruckus and the MOBS of people asking questions, and plenty of cuss words were heard across the office while the Terminal Agent just shook his head and talked about "Those (expletive deleted) foamers and (deleted) idiots...................." And it moved from MOCKING them with their striped overalls and caps covered with patches (National Railway HYSTERICAL Society, etc ) to cussing at them and literally having to CHASE them OUT of the yard office where they weren't supposed to be to begin with!!!!! I chased one off Engine 4501 when he, without even ASKING, followed me up onto the cab where I was about to hand the orders and Clearance Card to the engineer. "HEY! WHAT TH' H--- ARE YOU DOING UP HERE?" To the track crews and supervisors and other maintenance crews, the steam program had some inconvenience as well. For example, after I built enough whiskers to get OUT of the Line of Road, I worked at the NS Roadway Equipment for the last years of my career.
(Hey, it was 7 AM to 3:30 PM and weekends OFF--can you BLAME me? ) Until the shop was remodeled, the Charlotte, NC wye was right behind our shops. This is where the steam trains (as well as other road equipment) would be turned. It was a touch-and-go operation to watch one of the steam engines being sloooooooooooo-ly being inched around the wye while the Track Supervisor sweated and "puckered" hoping the thing wouldn't go on the ground. They HATED it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, honestly, while it might be tempting with all the public relations fodder that "might" be generated, now that the program is history, I expect it will STAY that way---unless some real steam fan takes the helm in "Ruinoke" (the city that "ruined" the Southern Railway!). Railroading is NOT a "game" for the benefit of "fans"; it is there to provide a service, earn a profit for the stockholders, and move FREIGHT for the good of the nation. Steam trains are part of the PAST. If steam was the way to move trains, they would be doing it! It-is-over! Just the way it is.


Gadfly

Gadfly wrote:

atsf sp wrote:

westr wrote:Maybe some good news for you Stash: SP 4449 is to attend TrainFestival 2009 in Owosso, Michigan on July 24-26. Its not quite Ohio, but its pretty close.

But I have read that SP 4449 will not be allowed to operate under its own power on NS tracks. Proves one thing for sure, NS hates steam just like when they decided to end the N&W steam holdout at the merger. Engines are allowed on the tracks, just without steam.

Slight correction. When NW merged with SOUTHERN, it was SOUTHERN that had the steam program from 1964-65 until merger in '82!!!!! Because Mssrs Claytor (Robert and Graham) were steam fans, it continued until the steam enthusiasts ultimately retired. It was a couple of "incidents" that got them thinking, "WAAAAAL, maybe this isn't such a good idea".

From the standpoint of an insider (I hired on Southern in '78), the steam program WAS a big nuisance! While it was kind of neat to work with them (at times) and see how it "was" back when, it got very aggravating. If you were called to work a yard or desk job and a steam train was on the district or in the terminal, it would practically shut down the yard. As a clerk or Train Order clerk, the phones would be ringing off the hook and you could not move freight, process waybills, or build pig trains for the commotion. We were expected to get our normal work done in spite of the ruckus and the MOBS of people asking questions, and plenty of cuss words were heard across the office while the Terminal Agent just shook his head and talked about "Those (expletive deleted) foamers and (deleted) idiots...................." And it moved from MOCKING them with their striped overalls and caps covered with patches (National Railway HYSTERICAL Society, etc ) to cussing at them and literally having to CHASE them OUT of the yard office where they weren't supposed to be to begin with!!!!! I chased one off Engine 4501 when he, without even ASKING, followed me up onto the cab where I was about to hand the orders and Clearance Card to the engineer. "HEY! WHAT TH' H--- ARE YOU DOING UP HERE?" To the track crews and supervisors and other maintenance crews, the steam program had some inconvenience as well. For example, after I built enough whiskers to get OUT of the Line of Road, I worked at the NS Roadway Equipment for the last years of my career.
(Hey, it was 7 AM to 3:30 PM and weekends OFF--can you BLAME me? ) Until the shop was remodeled, the Charlotte, NC wye was right behind our shops. This is where the steam trains (as well as other road equipment) would be turned. It was a touch-and-go operation to watch one of the steam engines being sloooooooooooo-ly being inched around the wye while the Track Supervisor sweated and "puckered" hoping the thing wouldn't go on the ground. They HATED it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, honestly, while it might be tempting with all the public relations fodder that "might" be generated, now that the program is history, I expect it will STAY that way---unless some real steam fan takes the helm in "Ruinoke" (the city that "ruined" the Southern Railway!). Railroading is NOT a "game" for the benefit of "fans"; it is there to provide a service, earn a profit for the stockholders, and move FREIGHT for the good of the nation. Steam trains are part of the PAST. If steam was the way to move trains, they would be doing it! It-is-over! Just the way it is.


Gadfly

Jesus, talk about a killjoy! Sounds like NS needs a big dose of Prozac! I guess the mood is alot more laid back in Cheyenne!

It is just the way it IS! You'd have to be on the "inside" to understand that while steam trains are fun (at times), there are a LOT of negatives that the fans don't SEE! Even at UP, I would just about bet that there are folks that feel the same dread when 844 comes to town. It shuts down or hampers the other operations of the railroad. The public never SEES this; to them, to the foamers in the striped overalls, it is all fun and games, a little HO track around a Christmas tree! One example of it is, once while a steam engine (I believe it was TP 610 if I am not mistaken), the fans and public just fanned out over Charlotte, NC Yard, roaming indescriminately around the yards while the Terminal Superintendent was swearing up a blue streak, "GET THOSE BLANKETY-BLAMKETY PEOPLE OUT OF HERE NOW, AND I MEAN RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!". The yard was literally brought to a halt with NO movements while the railroad detectives escorted people OUT of danger. They IGNORED the signs, wandered right in front of yard switchers and moving cuts of cars, and this had to be dealt with!!!! I heard the Yardmaster tell all the engines, "Stop your train(s) and remain in place until further notice!" You won't tell ME that it doesn't happen on UP, too! People going where they aren't supposed to, standing in the gauge taking photos oblivious to other moves behind them, bossy
fans telling employees to "get out of the way" (so he can take a picture), and the employee is doing what he was ordered to do (GRRRRRRR)

Sure, it is "fun", and garners a lot of positive attention for the company. But often the risk, the extra effort, the additional manpower required, movements and logistics----THAT'S what gives railroads (most of them) the heebie jeebies about running steam trains on their lines.
I don't "hate" steam trains, Heck, I WORKED "EM! Handed up orders to 'em! Even RODE them, deadheading from outlying assignments on the engines. Yes, it was different and fun. But you didn't wanna be at a departing or arrival terminal when the thing was about to make the scene! We would try to mark off if there was one scheduled because it was just a REAL hassle! A WILD scene! MOBS and GOBS of people AAAAAAARGH! A Trillion questions! Shooing people OUT of the Yard and Freight Office where they somehow thought THEY had special privileges to encroach!

"T'ain't no different on UP (betcha!). You just see it from a different perspective!

Gadfly

Gadfly wrote:It is just the way it IS! You'd have to be on the "inside" to understand that while steam trains are fun (at times), there are a LOT of negatives that the fans don't SEE! Even at UP, I would just about bet that there are folks that feel the same dread when 844 comes to town. It shuts down or hampers the other operations of the railroad. The public never SEES this; to them, to the foamers in the striped overalls, it is all fun and games, a little HO track around a Christmas tree! One example of it is, once while a steam engine (I believe it was TP 610 if I am not mistaken), the fans and public just fanned out over Charlotte, NC Yard, roaming indescriminately around the yards while the Terminal Superintendent was swearing up a blue streak, "GET THOSE BLANKETY-BLAMKETY PEOPLE OUT OF HERE NOW, AND I MEAN RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!". The yard was literally brought to a halt with NO movements while the railroad detectives escorted people OUT of danger. They IGNORED the signs, wandered right in front of yard switchers and moving cuts of cars, and this had to be dealt with!!!! I heard the Yardmaster tell all the engines, "Stop your train(s) and remain in place until further notice!" You won't tell ME that it doesn't happen on UP, too! People going where they aren't supposed to, standing in the gauge taking photos oblivious to other moves behind them, bossy
fans telling employees to "get out of the way" (so he can take a picture), and the employee is doing what he was ordered to do (GRRRRRRR)

Sure, it is "fun", and garners a lot of positive attention for the company. But often the risk, the extra effort, the additional manpower required, movements and logistics----THAT'S what gives railroads (most of them) the heebie jeebies about running steam trains on their lines.
I don't "hate" steam trains, Heck, I WORKED "EM! Handed up orders to 'em! Even RODE them, deadheading from outlying assignments on the engines. Yes, it was different and fun. But you didn't wanna be at a departing or arrival terminal when the thing was about to make the scene! We would try to mark off if there was one scheduled because it was just a REAL hassle! A WILD scene! MOBS and GOBS of people AAAAAAARGH! A Trillion questions! Shooing people OUT of the Yard and Freight Office where they somehow thought THEY had special privileges to encroach!

"T'ain't no different on UP (betcha!). You just see it from a different perspective!

Gadfly

Yet UP still does it..... If the hassles were too much, they would have canned it long ago. I'm surprised that the UP is even running steam at all this year , considering the economy.

A good number of people alive now aren't even old enough to remember when steam ran. It's not like 60 years ago when they were everywhere, every day. Can't something as majestic of an American icon like the occasional steam locomotive be enjoyed? You worked for the railroad, so I can see where your frustration comes in, but in the world we live in now, steam seems to bring out the best in people.

Oh well....Maybe King Obama will put the brakes on steam locomotives in the U.S.. After all, they're not GREEN. Then all the yardmasters will be happy.

Does any of this have to do with current operation of steam locomotives over Norfolk Southern?