Signal/control safety issue - transient gate openings

This morning, I experienced a scary (and frustrating) experience with a transient gate opening - the gates went up, only to come down seconds later, with me in the middle of the crossing. Here are the details:

I was southbound on New Hyde Park Road, near the New Hyde Park LIRR station. The gates were down as I approached the crossing. I stopped in the right lane, first car closest to the gate.

The train passed, and the gates went up. (It was a westbound through train, if this matters.) I started to cross the grade, and the gates started coming down again. Not more than 5-7 seconds could have passed! I stepped on the accelerator, and got out of the crossing ASAP.

Not long after I left the crossing, an MTA police officer pulled me over for going "through lowered RR barrier". He told me this as he handed me the ticket. (He hadn't done the old "Do you know why I stopped you?" routine with me.)

When I told him the gates had started coming down again as I was crossing, he said he had seen that. (?!?!) When I asked him if I was supposed to stay in the crossing with the gates coming down, he looked puzzled, and didn't answer. To be fair, I don't think he saw the incident from beginning to end - and at this point, he had already written the ticket...

Aside from getting the ticket (which is really annoying, and I plan to fight it), this is a major safety issue, because of the traffic flows around this crossing. During high traffic periods (both train and vehicle), I can easily see vehicles getting stuck on the crossing, due to a major left turning point just south of the crossing. If another train is so close that the gates go down again after 5-7 seconds of being up, they shouldn't have gone up in the first place.

Hunting around the Internet, I came across the following DOT report dated June 2004. I was amazed to find that of all the LIRR crossings to choose, they selected this New Hyde Park crossing to study a new proposed control system. (This is where I got the term "transient gate opening".) To a non-train person like me, this was very interesting and informative.

http://www.volpe.dot.gov/library/publis ... afinal.pdf

Now my questions:

1) Is this transient gate opening allowable by control and signal design guidelines, or did I experience a malfunction?

2) Does anybody know how I could contact the the LIRR Signals Department to relate my story?

Any other suggestions or thoughts are more than welcome. Thanks.

As long as the Gates were in the upward postition and no bells and lights flashing you have legal right to procede over the grade crossing, and if you are already in the crossing you have legal right to get the hell outa there in any way shape size or form if the bells ring lights flash and gates come down.

once the gates gone up according to your story, it was then legal for you to cross. thuss makeing it a violation of the MTAPD for giveing you a sumons for being on the tracks, obviously that is why there is a "delay" between the moment the lights and bells flash and the gates come down. that delay is to give any one on the crossing a chance to get the hell off before the gates come down and they bust them off.

MTAPD is clearly wrong for that, i suggust you go and get evidance of the crossing and video footage for court.

I am not familiar with the law on this matter, so I can't comment on the ticket. However, one thing you said showed a lack of common sense. You mentioned the left turn and heavy traffic, and how you could see a car getting hit because of "transient gates". The railroad crossing is not an intersection, the train always has the right of way. These trains are traveling at speeds of up to 80mph at new hyde park, and it takes them long distances to stop. A person should NEVER pull on to a crossing unless they are sure they can clear the other side. NEVER pull on to a crossing unless you can go all the way across. Every day we see people pull up behind other cars on the crossings, and then the gates come down and they have no place to go. Big Mistake, trust me, at 80MPH the train will not stop in time. As far as the gates going up and down, I do know that when a train passes, the law requires motorists to wait untill the gates are all the way up, and the lights have stopped flashing. The reason why the gates went "up and down" is because just as the westbound train creared the circuit, another train entered the circuit and activated the gates.

In most states, traffic laws prohibit entering the crossing from the time the lights start flashing (even where there are gates) until the gates have completely risen, and the lights have stopped flashing. So, if the train had passed, and the gates had not fully risen, you are in fact guilty of of the offense charged. Go to court anyway and plead your case, as you may be offered an oppurtunity to plead guilty to a reduced charge.

Crossing gates are the equivalent of a red traffic light, and it is unlawful to pass while they are lowering, down, or rising.

As to if the situation is a malfunction, did another train pass by after the gates went down the second time?

Sirsonic is right. NY State law requires people to wait until the gates have risen fully and all other warning devices have stopped doing w/e they're supposed to do(bells ringing or lights flashing).

I'd go to court anyway. Remember, you have a 100% chance of losing if you just pay the ticket.

Remnember to get your supporting deposition (I think you can for this ticket), study the VTL, and be prepared. A copy of the VTL can save you hundreds in fines from an overzealous cop looking for an easy 'score'. Some will do anything to meet quota...

In any case, the cop has to write in the section of the VTL you violated. Start there and READ READ READ it. I once got a 'loud pipes' ticket on my bike for violating the *car* noise standard (which is significantly different). Got that tossed out...

What amazes me is how people roll over and just pay a lot of the time, or ignore it (that's bad too). Most cops can't keep their tough guy act going in court (judges hate it from both sides), and especially in NYC, you have a very good chance (I've witnessed a 40% - 50% toss rate). Actually, I'd say an NYC traffic ticket is much easier to fight than a Nassau one.

I'd go to court anyway. Remember, you have a 100% chance of losing if you just pay the ticket.

Remnember to get your supporting deposition (I think you can for this ticket), study the VTL, and be prepared. A copy of the VTL can save you hundreds in fines from an overzealous cop looking for an easy 'score'. Some will do anything to meet quota...

In any case, the cop has to write in the section of the VTL you violated. Start there and READ READ READ it. I once got a 'loud pipes' ticket on my bike for violating the *car* noise standard (which is significantly different). Got that tossed out...

What amazes me is how people roll over and just pay a lot of the time, or ignore it (that's bad too). Most cops can't keep their tough guy act going in court (judges hate it from both sides), and especially in NYC, you have a very good chance (I've witnessed a 40% - 50% toss rate). Actually, I'd say an NYC traffic ticket is much easier to fight than a Nassau one.

bmoc,

I've done much work in this area and am familiar with the condition you describe. Gates can go up, then come down again five seconds later. That is not a problem nor a malfunction. It's another train.

If the gates came down seven seconds after they went up, the lights never stopped flashing -- they must flash for 5 seconds before the gates lower. The officer will attest to that and you will be convicted.

You can certainly bring a retired signal engineer as a witness; I know several who would testify as experts for you. I've looked at the logs and there were no malfunctions reported Tuesday. You can get a copy of these records, as well as all the required service records for the crossing but I'll assure you that the gates were operating properly -- they are 1910 technology that works very well, and when they fail they don't do it in the way you describe.

What's frustrating to you is the huge fine, and the points on your license. It will be your word against the officer's, and you can guess who carries more credibility. The lights were flashing while and after the gate was rising and you passed under the gate. You committed a violation.

If you are serious about beating this charge, get an attorney. Otherwise it's a three point, $175 (with surcharges) ticket. The court automatically permits attorneys to get a plea one step better that that which they will offer you. An attorney could probably get this knocked down to a "2-point" ticket that woun't cost you so much in insurance surcharges.

Before you do anything, send for a supporting deposition. You have 48 hours to request this; if they don't send it, you must immediately (within 30 days) file a motion with the court to dismiss the charge. If they do send it, get a lawyer. By the way, a not guilty plea must be entered within 48 hours also.

You woun't beat this ticket by going down there yourself and complaining about the Western Railroad Signal's gate system. They are old as dirt and have never lost a case in court. Calling cops liers doen't usually work either.

Sorry for the bad news, pal. Either cough up the $600 for a lawyer or try to bargain a plea. I suspect the lawyer will pay for himself in insurance surcharge savings.

Next time the lights are flashing, maybe you should just wait... it'll be lots cheaper and you woun't have to worry about someone scraping your earthly remains off of the rolling stock...

Clem

I remember back when the gates were lowered manually by the block operator at "PD" tower.

He would first flip a toggle switch on the wall which would start the lights flashing and the bells ringing. Then he would unlatch the handles, and crank the gates down.

There was a block operator working there at the time whose name I can't recall and wouldn't mention it even if I could. On occasion, the traffic light at Brookhaven Town Hall would back the traffic up over the crossing. This was usually during the summer months when there was a bit of traffic heading to the docks to get the ferries to Fire Island (Leja Beach?). One thing that really ticked the operator off was to see cars stopped across the rails, stuck in traffic, with no where to go.

He would have fun with the drivers by waiting until they were good and stuck in traffic and firmly situated across the tracks. He would then flip the toggle switch on to start the lights flashing and the bells ringing.

You should have seen all hell break loose as those drivers tried to get off that crossing!!!!!

The operator would have a good laugh, then turn off the swith after he'd tortured the driver(s) enough and go back to his work.

It spoiled his fun when they removed the cranks and installed the automatic gates there. Shortly afterward, my friend Ed was posted there and I never saw the other operator again.


Dave Keller

As Clem mentioned, this is not a malfunction of the gates. The train passed, another train approcahed and entered the circuit to drop the gates again. Perfectly normal.

Lirrconductor is also correct in stating that if the roadway is blocked ahead of you, and your vehicle can not clear the other side safely, you are to remain on the other side of the crossing. (When you think about it, it's common sense).

You might also consider yourself lucky that all you received is a summons. Many motorists have lost their lives over the years by blocking the tracks to make a left hand turn, and then having nowhere to go and not enough common sense to leave the vehicle ASAP.

Interestingly, this is one of the main reasons the LIRR wanted to elevate through the area when they elevated Floral Park. New Hyde Park fought it because they didn't want to ruin their quaint little town.

That traffic jam every day is quite quaint, isn't it?

Jay

Thanks for all the replies. I'm very impressed by the knowledge and expertise of everybody who posted.

Just a few comments/replies to your specific postings:

LI 7285: Regarding the video idea, what are the chances I will find myself with another ticket? Reading some of the other threads in this LIRR forum, it sounds like the MTA police like to actively discourage photography and videography. (Though as far as I can tell, it's not illegal.)

LIConductor: I fully agree with your "common sense" comments. But the area around this crossing suffers from a bad design that increases risk, even to cautious drivers. The authors of the DOT report I linked to went so far as to propose a redesign the roads around this crossing. This recommendation was an "oh by the way" suggestion - even if you don't implement their signalling control proposal, here's a suggestion to address the bad situation at this crossing. This was probably based on seeing a tractor trailer get stuck in the middle of the crossing due to a transient gate opening. (You have to look deep in the footnotes to find mention of this observation.)

Nasadowsk: I do plan to fight this ticket. But I don't blame the MTA cop. I'm usually very pro-cop - my grandfather was a cop. Thinking about it from the MTA cop's perspective, he probably saw a lone car heading away from gates that were down. He must have concluded I went around the gates. I got the feeling he may have understood what had really happened after we briefly discussed it. But the ticket was written by then, and I'm almost certain he couldn't void it.

Clem: You have given me a very valuable piece of data. You mentioned that the lights flash for 15 seconds before the gates are lowered. Since this incident, I've timed this interval several times, and it's always 5 seconds! You are obviously an insider who knows his stuff. Is it possible that the LIRR signal and control engineers reduced the interval from 15 seconds to 5 seconds because of the number of 80 MPH trains that pass through a very busy crossing? Think about it this way - people are far more willing to race through flashing lights than to risk damaging their cars with lowering gates. If you're a signalling engineer who wants to minimize the chance that an 80 MPH train collides with a car at the crossing, then you make those gates go down ASAP!! A longer flashing light interval just gives people more time to do stupid things. (This assumes you can't change the signalling and control block sizes, which seems reasonable given the short distances between stations, and the high variability in the speed of trains passing through.)

jayrmli: I don't understand why New Hyde Park fought elevating this area. By no means is this a scenic area. Warehouses and factories line both sides of the tracks. If I had to guess, it may have been Garden City that fought it, because the area near the Merillon station on the south side has some very nice houses ($$$), and you probably would have had to elevate this area also.

LI 7285: Regarding the video idea, what are the chances I will find myself with another ticket? Reading some of the other threads in this LIRR forum, it sounds like the MTA police like to actively discourage photography and videography. (Though as far as I can tell, it's not illegal.)

Your not filming TRAINS your filming CARS, personal vehicles, voilateing the law, and going through a crossing and not getting summons when you went through when the gates were up and not flashing then they came down you were already on the ROW while they re lit and came back down, makeing it a legal crossing, if the light is hits red while you clear the intersection your clear to procede.

as long as youre not filming the MTA but rather personal cars, MTAPD can say or do anything, locals can ask you to leave, then just tell them you are gathering evidance for traffic court, and that this is a major safety issue that you need this video evidance to prove your correct..

I have a feeling Clem added a 1 in front of the 5. I've never seen any crossing protection flash 15 seconds before the gate lowered.

Jay

The lights must flash for three seconds before the gates began to descend. The gates must be horizontal before the train arrives at the crossing. The crossing warning devices must begin functioning not less than 20 seconds prior to the arrival of the train at the crossing. The crossing gates, where equipped, must be at least 6 feet (I believe, although my measurement may be off) or cover 50% of the width of the roadway.

I also thought Clem made a typo when he said 15 seconds, instead of 5 seconds. Or he may have meant 15 seconds from initial activation to the gate reaching its fully lowered position.