Several signal/equipment/operation questions

Several miscellaneous questions,

1. Is Automatic Speed Control the same system as Automatic Train Control?

2. As a train accelerates towards the maximum allowed speed, does ASC automatically keep the train from accelerating past MAS, or does an audible alert come on, alerting the engineer to brake until below the limit?

3. When ASC detects a lower speed code, does the train automatically brake to the lower speed when the alerter goes on, or does the engineer have to brake manually within a certain time limit? If he/she does not brake within a certain time, will there be an emergency application? Does the alerter beep until after going below the speed limit?

4. Is the maximum allowable speed determined by equipment or route?

5.. What are the different cab signal aspects and codes?

6. Is there any ABS territory left?

7. Are there defect detectors?

8. What are the deadman's devices for engineer? (handle/arlerter?)

9. What operating rules does LIRR use, if it isn't NORAC?

10. Are the doors interlocked (not sure if right term) with the motors and brakes? (ie. the doors open when train in motion, will the brakes dump go into emergency and motors stop?)

I'll try to answer some of your questions as an experienced LIRR railfan, and maybe some other more knowledgable participants can correct me and/or fill in the blanks.

I believe automatic speed control and automatic train control are different names for the same thing. If the train exceeds Maximum Authorized Speed (MAS) the audible warning device will sound and the engineer silences it with a button or lever. If he (she) then fails to slow the train accordingly the system will activate. I'm not sure if it will just slow the train to the specified speed or actually "dump" it.

Same thing happens when a lower speed code is rec'd. BTW the alerter is NOT the same thing as the audible warning device. The alerter will sound if no other manual operations such as braking, operating the horn, etc. are done for a certain number of seconds. It also makes a different sound than the audible warning device.

M.A.S. is determined by the particular section of track on the actual route and by type of equipment. Highest MAS on the LIRR is 80mph for electric MU trains and I think 65 mph for Diesels. I'm not sure about all the LIRR cab signal aspects. Every railroad is different. Metro-North for example uses fewer aspects than LIRR. Some LIRR cab-signal aspects are 15, 30, 60, 80.

I don't think LIRR uses defect detectors.

Dead-man devices vary with type of equipment. M-1 and M-3 electrics have it built into the controller. The engineer has to hold it down while operating, to keep the system from activating. The new M-7's use an alerter instead. ***I'd be interested in hearing which system most engineers prefer. I would think the controller would be easier than having that nuisance alerter sounding all the time.

LIRR has its own rulebook.

The doors are interlocked with the controller. If I understand right, the engineer will not be able to draw power or maybe not get a brake-release if the doors are not all closed. However sometimes this system malfunctions and the crew will get the dispatcher's permission to go on "door by-pass" to get the train moving. I'm not sure what will happen if a door should open while the train is in motion. I did see a leaf open once at the same time the train braked for (I believe) a code-reduction.

I hope I answered some of your questions. Again maybe some others here can fill in the blanks and/or correct me as needed.

The door light is only interlocked with power function and not related to Brake functions.
A train losing Doorlight could coast to next station if enough speed is available.

Door Bypass "hotwires" the Power Interlock Relay. While operating in door bypass, one, two, or every door in the train could open, and the train could still draw power. Crews are aware of this fact, and react accordingly.

Head End;

During full service braking from an overspeed, occasionally a door will open slightly (M-1 and M-3 only...M-7 door is mechanically locked fully closed during train travel) into the pushback zone, I.E. 2-3", and then close again.
If that is what you saw, that should not be considered a "door opened enroute". If it opened more than that couple of inches, that would be a definite "door opened enroute" complaint.

On the LIRR, ASC typically refers to diesel equipment, and ATC typically refers to the electrics. Methinks that dates back to the M-1, with it's ATO apparatus, which would have qualified it as an Automatic Train Control system.
Even though the M-3 and M-7 were built without that capability, we still call it ATC on all the electrics.
So, basically, the names are interchangeable on the LIRR.

The codes, and their associated nominal maximum speeds for the electrics on the LIRR, are 180 (80 mph), 270 (70), 420 (60), 120 (40), 75 (30), 50 (15), and no code (15). Diesel is different.
The true 15 code (50 CPM), is not used and has been dropped from the M-7 ATC apparatus.

There is an older thread where this is more detailed, if you have the time to peruse the archives.

Getting back to "is there any kind of acknowledgement" like a sound or a buzzer that goes off if you go over speed, yes there is and it's very annoying.

When going from ASC territory into non-ASC territory (ex. the first eastward signal on the central branch just after Beth Interlocking) the light will illuminate and the sound will go off, you must hold the acknowledge button for like 15 seconds to cut out ASC.

I would assume the speed restrictions be something the engineers know in terms of locations. Certain areas the code changes calling for a speed restriction, so it would be best to setup your train. For example, if you know a mile ahead there is a curve that requires you doing 40MPH and you are doing 65, it would be wise to setup 1/2 mile away (or something of that nature). Start making brake applications so by the time you get to that curve, you are doing 45'ish.


In terms of the speed being determined by equipment or just the physical characteristcs, I would think it would be both. You aren't going to see high speed trains going to Port Jefferson with how many curves that branch has. I heard M1's are actually faster than M7's.

Thanks guys, for the feedback and corrections. KCLS: See what an interesting dialog you started? Chuckle!

Tom: that one door incident I saw was about 10 years ago and it was a true "door opened enroute". We were eastbound on track 4 approaching Jamaica in the vicinity of Metropolitan Ave. where you normally get an "approach-medium" or "approach-slow". Just as the train suddenly slowed, the L-2 door suddenly slid completely open and stayed that way. I was standing in that first vestibule and witnessed it along with a crew member who was standing there too. He immediately opened the cabinet and took the normal action of closing and locking it. I assume he also reported it, etc....

I remember that previous thread a couple of years ago where someone (maybe you Tom) explained the difference between a "15-code" and a "no-code". If I remember right, the 15-code is the stop indication and "no-code" is a failure, right?

Did you say the M-7's don't have a "15-code"? How is that possible? Can you explain that further?

This gets maybe slightly confusing, but:

The difference between the 15 code and no code appears to have stemmed from the ATO equipped M-1. The actual 15 code (50 CPM) would have enforced 15 mph, and no code condition would have enforced a stop while in ATO, from what I can see from the old books. Under manual control, a no code condition did and still does allow operation up to 15 mph. ATO was disabled before I even worked on the LIRR, let alone became an Electrician. I guess an Engineer would have had to take manual control away from ATO when in no code areas such as the Jamaica Station area.
It would be helpful to get some input from retired Engineers, who may have used ATO, to help us out with this.
Since ATO has long been abandoned, a no code condition still enforces 15 MPH while under manual control, and the true 15 code (50 CPM) has apparently not been used and is not needed. Under current LIRR operating conditions, it was just redundant to a no code condition. Why spend money to encode blocks with a 15 code, when no code does the same thing in 2005?

The confusion concerning "no code" vs. "15 code" probably stems from the fact that transportation calls a no code condition a "15 code", simply meaning a 15 mph enforcement. It is technically erroneous, as in "continuous 15 code", but they all know what they mean by it. And so do we in M of E.
Since the true 15 code will probably never be used, it was droppped from the M-7. A no code condition in an M-7 does the same thing as M1/M3, which is enforce nominal 15 mph speed.

I hope this helps, instead of making the explanation more muddied.

Tom

Tom is right on with his replies as well as his understanding of how the Transportation Department deals with the "no code" aspect.

Just a few additions to this thread:

Not all speed restrictions in ASC equipped territory are coded on speed control. So in many places, it is possible to receive an MAS aspect on the cab signals when on a curve with a 30 MPH restriction.

The operating rules of the Long Island Railroad is the Standard Code, slightly revised for our use. It is the rulebook that was generally used by most all railroads for a century before NORAC. Yes, we still have manual block territory and still use Form 19 Train Orders.

When operating to New York, crews operate under NORAC rules in Harold and west thereof.

All operating employees are qualified on both sets of rules. So we get to see two rules examiners, LIRR and Amtrak. Most of the operating employees are qualified on Amtrak PC through Penn Station, the Hudson River Tubes and a few are qualified further west and north.

Clem

Thanks Tom; understood!

I don't recall that ATO was ever used in normal service on LIRR. As you say, maybe some veterans can confirm that. I think the MTA optimistically ordered that capability with the M-1's. From memory and what history I've read, when MTA was new in the late 1960's they had lots of grandiose plans for space-age modernization. That included ATO, the Second Ave. Subway (Still not built 38 years later !! ) and 1 person subway train operation, just begun recently. So it appears that ATO was one of their hot ideas that fell by the wayside.

Head End,

Regarding the other point you asked about:

A no code condition can either be an integral part of the operation, or it can indicate a failure.

Jamaica's interlockings, all yards, Penn Station area, etc., all have no code present. We need to be able to move equipment under that condition, of course, so the system will allow a speed of up to 15 as an integral part of the operation.

By the same token, if a train is tooling along the Babylon branch with MAS code, and all of a sudden he [/she] has no code when he enters the next block, he will have to slow down to 15 mph. Track circuit failure, for whatever reason it failed, will give a no code as the most restrictive (to wit, safest) course of action. The commuters get p.o. because we've delayed them, but we've done the right thing. What if the track circuit failure is caused by a broken rail? I don't think the paying commuter wants the LIRR to ignore the restrictive code, cut out the ATC, and go through the failed track circuit area at other than restricted speed, unless it's already been determined to be a non-dangerous reason for the track circuit failure. ( "C" card issued )
A no code condition, where the Engineer would normally expect a code, says something's wrong. Time to call 204.

Tom

KLCS,

In reference to your questions 2 and 3:

The audible warning device will sound either:
1) if a more restrictive code is received than the previous one, or
2) if the train is in an overspeed condition.
There can of course be a combination of the two.

If a train is doing, for whatever reason, 30 mph with an 80 mph code, and the code drops to 70 mph, the bell or alerter will sound just to let the Engineer know that a more restrictive code has been received. He/she just acknowledges the alert, and no further action is necessary. 30 mph is still less than the 70 mph now allowed. There is no need for braking.
A less restrictive code received than the last one will not sound the device.

Now, let's get to the good stuff.
If an overspeed is detected, the train will brake automatically, irrespective of anything the Engineer does. He can have the Master Controller in P4, coast, or brake. Doesn't matter. Brakes will come on anyway. The overspeed can be either from a code drop putting the train into an overspeed condition, or simply driving the train into an overspeed condition. It doesn't matter, the result is the same. The bell or alerter will sound. Acknowledging it will stop the noise, but has no effect on the train automatically putting on the brakes.

Now, during braking in an overspeed, the ATC package must see a minimum deceleration rate attained and maintained until the overspeed is cleared. At that time, the Engineer can reset the P-wire, release the brakes, and resume operation. If the minimum deceleration rate is not maintained continuously while braking in an overspeed condition, the brake pipe will vent, putting the train into "Emergency Brake Application" ("Dumping").

Tom

1. Is Automatic Speed Control the same system as Automatic Train Control?

Yes, ASC is a LIRR specific implementation of ATC.

6. Is there any ABS territory left?

Yes, the Oyster Bay, Old Main Line, Atlantic Ave Branch and I believe the Port Jeff past Huntington are all running under Rule 251.

7. Are there defect detectors?

Yup, they talk in the towers.

8. What are the deadman's devices for engineer? (handle/arlerter?)

Both handle pressure and cab signal alerter.

9. What operating rules does LIRR use, if it isn't NORAC?

An updated version of the old PRR rulebook.

While we're talking about alerters and such: Can anyone tell us at what intervals the alerter sounds on LIRR's M-7 equipment? On the Metro-North thread someone said a while back that theirs is 25 seconds. Is LIRR's equipment the same? That must a be a real friggin' nuisance......That's why I asked earlier if engineers might have preferred the controller pressure system on the M-1/M-3's.