• SEPTA keeping push-pulls for the future?

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by R3 Passenger
 
Clearfield wrote:
amtrakowitz wrote:
Clearfield wrote:
ekt8750 wrote:The line item says they're open to diesel or electric locomotives.
By the time they're ready to buy, the dual-modes may be more commonplace.
Commonplace as in...? Only one railroad in the US is supposed to be using them.
Any railroad that needs and can afford dual-mode can buy them. Where does 'supposed' come into the picture? NJT took the very very brave step in buying engines that hadn't been designed yet. That doesn't give them the exclusive on them. Based on the budget timing, they could be used to extend service to Reading, Quakertown, and (gasp) Newtown.
Considering the state of SEPTA's aging electrical substations and the lack of money to replace them, it may be cheaper for SEPTA to purchase a few MLVs and ALP-45DPs to run electric through the tunnel and diesel outside in order to reduce the load on the substations during rush hour.
  by Patrick Boylan
 
Is this time marching sideways? I'm pretty sure that's the reason the New Haven got their dual mode FL9's, because there was too much load on their electrical system in existing electrified territory. I understand they didn't intend to use them to extend electric trains into diesel territory.
  by Clearfield
 
Patrick Boylan wrote:Is this time marching sideways? I'm pretty sure that's the reason the New Haven got their dual mode FL9's, because there was too much load on their electrical system in existing electrified territory. I understand they didn't intend to use them to extend electric trains into diesel territory.
Actually, the power demands (as I've been advised by folks who are paid to know these things) will be less as more of the SLV's come on line.

SLV's only consume cat power while accellerating.
When coasting, they generate their own power.
When braking, they regerate power back to the cat.
  by Matthew Mitchell
 
All that is in the out years and subject to change. I would expect that as the time for a Silverliner VI order draws near, SEPTA will once again put out a request for expressions of interest in buying the PP fleet as they did a few years ago. If they get a favorable offer for the PPs and a good deal on new MUs, it would make sense for them to sell the PPs.
  by dreese_us
 
I don't think it make sense to sell the push-pulls, so it's a move I can see Septa doing. I would think that using the coaches with dual modes like NJ Transit is purchasing, would be the most cost effective way to expand service in non-electrified territory. Too bad they can't add a order on to the current NJ Transit order and get them now.
  by blockline4180
 
SEPTAR2Newark wrote:Later on in the VEHICLE OVERHAUL PROGRAM it states
Highlights of the Fiscal Year 2013 program include the overhaul of 30-foot Eldorado buses, 40-foot low-floor New Flyer diesel buses, Broad Street B-IV cars, City and Suburban trolleys, Regional Rail Bombardier Push-Pull railcars and locomotives, Market Frankford M-4 cars, Norristown High Speed Line N-5 cars, and maintenance of way equipment.
Not sure which statement to stand with but if they do an overhaul it would be good to send the fleet to the Amtrak Wilmington and Bear shops if they want a good quality rebuild.

Hmm, I wonder if that includes the overhaul of the Comet I's as well or just the Bomb coaches...Anyone know??
  by Clearfield
 
dreese_us wrote:Too bad they can't add a order on to the current NJ Transit order and get them now.
Let NJT debug this new technology combination first.
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
As for the push-pull fleet, the AEM7s will be turning 25 this year (and have lasted longer in service than all of NJT's ALP44s).
  by Jtgshu
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote:As for the push-pull fleet, the AEM7s will be turning 25 this year (and have lasted longer in service than all of NJT's ALP44s).
Again, age is not always a factor in the wearing of equipment. I don't know why this concept is so hard for some people to grasp

Comparing NJTs fleet to Septas, NJT's is going to have MUCH more miles and start/stops on it. Septas fleet and operations could be more compared to NJTs Hoboken division (electric obviously), but not the Newark Division. But since the retirement of the Comet 1s from NJT, and not including the Metro North fleet, there really is no fleet dedicated to one side or the other and often alternates sides, partly so the equipment wears at relatively similar rates.

But lets break it down into a comparison with older automobiles, something I know you have an interest in R36 as ive browsed your photostream pics, and others might be able to relate to and be familiar with.

I have a 1987 Dodge Dakota pickup truck (with a Blue NJ licence plate!!!). I have 175,000 miles on it (approx). It hasn't been driven much in the past 10 years or so, so now has less miles than it "should" for its age (figure approx 10k a year, it should have about 250,000 miles). However, I put a new motor in it a few years ago, and have been slowly rebuilding the major systems of it, so its kind of a mid life overhaul, as its having some aging issues of its own. But it has a good amount of life left in it and serves its purpose and its worth keeping.

A few years ago, my buddy had a 1993 Dodge Dakota truck, he had over 200,000 miles on it, beat the snot out of it, and it was quickly failing apart. Lots of things were going wrong and it was having some major issues. He sold it and got rid of it...it ran, but needed a lot of work - im sure its probably shredded by now. Sure, he could have put a new motor in it, but everything else would still be broken or failing. In his opinion, it wasn't worth keeping.

His truck was newer, but had more miles - mine is older, has less miles. Mines gonna be around a lot longer than his will/was.

In reality, the railroads do the same thing with their equipment. If its lived an easier life, chances are its gonna last longer. If its been "ridden hard and put away wet" its not gonna last nearly as long. Also, the question is too, when should a railroad retire/rebuild its fleet of whatever.... - when the rate and number of failures are unacceptable, or before it gets to that point? (considering money isn't a factor) It seems as a railfan (and taxpayer), the answer would be they should get every ounce of life out of it possible. As a railroader (or passenger), it should be before it gets to that point, because each of those increasing failures costs lots of money and causes lots of disruptions. Its like a balancing act - NJT might have retired some stuff a little too early, but I don't think anyone can argue Septa has waited too long to retire the SL2 and 3s. I know I know, money and funding is always an issue, but you have to look at a larger picture of operations in general and have a wish list and goal and plan for whats going to happen in the future, and kinda hope the money comes when the time comes....
  by 25Hz
 
NorthPennLimited wrote:The future looks bright-er.

SEPTA website is looking for designers to submit plans for "high speed" electric locomotives.


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Hoping the ACS-64 gets a transit spec baby brother.
  by NorthPennLimited
 
Lowest. Bid.
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  by Head-end View
 
I'm coming into this topic late, so I'm sorry if this is a dumb question: Wouldn't it be simpler for SEPTA to just run an all EMU fleet instead of having both an MU fleet and some electric push-pull trains? From everything I've read on these boards, it sounds like the P-P trains are more trouble than they're worth and are not very efficient for the start/stop nature of commuter rail. Actually, I'd like to ask NJ Transit the same question, at least as it pertains to electric territory.

How I miss our friend Jtgshu at times like this, 'cause I know he could give us a very good explanation of this topic.
  by jackintosh11
 
Unlike SEPTA, NJ Transit stations tend to be farther apart. This gives the trains more time to accelerate, and locomotive hauled trains can run at higher speeds than EMUs. The LIRR and Metro North have to run EMUs because 3rd rail locomotives are impractical due to the fact that there are gaps in the 3rd rail, and a locomotive wouldn't be able to bridge the gap, unless it was really long, and 3rd rail can't handle the higher speeds that a locomotive would provide anyway. NJ Transit also has more diesel services than the other railroads, so having one fleet of cars that can operate anywhere works better. SEPTA, on the other hand, has closely spaced stations, and is completely electric, so EMUs are well suited to them. However, the push pulls are useful for express runs, as they do run faster. That's why they're used on the great valley flyer and other expresses. They can also be pulled by diesels, which SEPTA actually has used (Railworks, and this), so I think it makes sense for septa to keep them around.
  by 25Hz
 
The coaches have more capacity than the EMU's, don't they?