SEPTA Cancels CRRC multi level order (Was:SEPTA to get multi-level railroad coaches)

RandallW wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 2:57 pm If SEPTA wants to get new coaches as rapidly as possible, wouldn't their best bet would be to negotiate exercising options on the existing NJT multilevel order (they can lease a couple of NJT or MARC to confirm clearances) or on the existing CONN DOT order?

The current management really has no interest in locomotive-hauled coaches for future operations; they only inherited the CRRC mess. At best, I would suggest they go to MARC for surplus Sumitomo MARC IIA coaches that they aren't using, just to put miles on the additional ACS-64's. And I somehow suspect they've been quietly drafting the Silverliner VI specs in the background in anticipation of everything hitting the fan with CRRC, because I've heard very unofficial rumors from downtown that an RFP for Silverliner IV may be set to go out soon.

Silverliner II wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:35 pm They're pretty much incompatible with the Exo fleet, and on top of everything else, there were a host of defects still to be dealt with.

What differences are their between the SEPTA and EXO cars and how significant are these variations?

I'd recommend SEPTA wait and see with ConnDOT's Alstom single level order. The Comets date from 1987 and
1999 and should be low mileage being used on peak schedules, so they still could run for some time.

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 10:41 pm

Silverliner II wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:35 pm They're pretty much incompatible with the Exo fleet, and on top of everything else, there were a host of defects still to be dealt with.

What differences are their between the SEPTA and EXO cars and how significant are these variations?

I'd recommend SEPTA wait and see with ConnDOT's Alstom single level order. The Comets date from 1987 and
1999 and should be low mileage being used on peak schedules, so they still could run for some time.

Exo's CRRC cars are a similar design to the Rotem cars used on Tri-Rail and Metrolink in Los Angeles and they are low-platform doors only. The two SEPTA cars would be closer to Exo multilevels, but the door controls would need some reconfiguration since the end doors on the Exo multilevels are low-platform only. So it's not really a major thing, but at the same time, I doubt Exo would want two oddball cars in their fleet.

Exo is using their CRRC fleet to retire their own Comet and Bombardier bilevel fleets, leaving them with just the multilevels and CRRC bilevels as their two remaining car types.

SEPTA's Comets just got a total interior overhaul in 2015-2016 and in 2020-2021 (three trailers and 8 cab cars remained to be completed with the Silverliner V problem halted the overhaul program in 2016), so yeah, they're definitely good for a long while to come, besides being low mileage. It's the extra Sprinters they've got to get some use out of.... the only fast way I see that happening is redeploying the push-pull fleet into at least ten 4-car sets, and that would leave them with 5 spare trailers and 5 spare locomotives. And even then, the trailers could make up an 11th set with a motor on both ends. All in the name of racking up mileage on everything.

The only surplus cars are CalTrain's that probably will not fit Septa's clearances??

west point wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:37 pm The only surplus cars are CalTrain's that probably will not fit Septa's clearances??

Nope. Gallery cars won't fit and are low-platform only.

Assuming the structural integrity of the Silverliner IVs would hold up for another 10 years could a significant number of them be demotored and rehabbed in-house as push pull coaches for the extra ACS64s? And any removed parts be used to keep the remaining powered cars going until at least 2028 or so?


And for what it’s worth ConnDOT does have 313 option cars in their contract with Alstom and they could be delivered by 2030 if there are no delays with the 2026-2027 delivery timeframe for the ConnDOT 60 “base order” cars. That is also of course assuming there are M-10s or even additional M-8s on order for Penn Station Access service. Otherwise it’ll have to be some of those option cars + Chargers which would mean a longer wait for SEPTA to see any cars of their own delivered.

I'd think there might be some Horizons that are on the verge of being surplus by now.... wouldn't those be a good fit?

Amtrak is trying to move the Horizon cars around to different state services that are not receiving the Siemens cars. Such as the Downeaster has had 2 visits to Maine to familiarize with the cars.

nomis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:43 am Amtrak is trying to move the Horizon cars around to different state services that are not receiving the Siemens cars. Such as the Downeaster has had 2 visits to Maine to familiarize with the cars.

The Downeaster is expected to get Airo trainsets, so it will be getting Siemens cars.

Or by the "Siemens cars" do you mean that the cars owned by California, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, and Wisconsin that are currently in service (and can't be used elsewhere)?

Amtrak intends to keep the Horizon fleet longer than they intend to keep the Amfleet I fleet. I think (but don't know) that the Horizon cars cost less to maintain than the Amfleet despite being a significantly smaller fleet.

RandallW wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:42 pm

nomis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:43 am Amtrak is trying to move the Horizon cars around to different state services that are not receiving the Siemens cars. Such as the Downeaster has had 2 visits to Maine to familiarize with the cars.

The Downeaster is expected to get Airo trainsets, so it will be getting Siemens cars.

Or by the "Siemens cars" do you mean that the cars owned by California, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, and Wisconsin that are currently in service (and can't be used elsewhere)?

Amtrak intends to keep the Horizon fleet longer than they intend to keep the Amfleet I fleet. I think (but don't know) that the Horizon cars cost less to maintain than the Amfleet despite being a significantly smaller fleet.

That was in reference to the Midwest and California Siemens cars, yes.

Congratulations SEPTA on doing the right thing and cancelling your contract! Much better to cancel with no coaches delivered than having half of them delivered with defects then cancelling. With CRRC directly owned by the PRC government it should be easy to find and attach $50M in assets. Assuming they can penetrate whatever the corporate structure is. MA is doing the wrong thing by paying them an extra $148M. It was so obvious from the beginning that this was a bad, stupid decision by MA to buy Chinese subway cars. Massachusetts government seems incapable of learning; CRRC, Hyundai-Rotem, HSP-46, Buying Italian trolleys instead of Japanese trolleys, the Boeing LRVs in the 1970s....

NJTransit this spring is scheduled to receive the first powered and unpowered bi-level coaches it ordered a few years ago. Could SEPTA order this equipment? Some allege these cars have clearance issues with some overpasses on SEPTA's system. True?

I don't see issues with clearances or loading gauge, are they the same height as the cancelled CRRCs?

BandA wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:38 am Massachusetts government seems incapable of learning; CRRC, Hyundai-Rotem, HSP-46, Buying Italian trolleys instead of Japanese trolleys, the Boeing LRVs in the 1970s....

Not a great track record since Osgood-Bradley closed in Worcester. Though the Chicago built Pullmans (01500/01600s) from 1969 did well, along with the 1994 No. 3 series.

IIRC the Boeing LRVs were the only trolley that could be bought with federal funds at the time due to Federal policies; MBTA had tried to buy Duwags (later successfully used in San Diego), but the Nixon administration introduced the "Buy American" rules in response and then got Boeing to design and build the LRV to meet those rules.

RandallW wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 5:35 am IIRC the Boeing LRVs were the only trolley that could be bought with federal funds at the time due to Federal policies; MBTA had tried to buy Duwags (later successfully used in San Diego), but the Nixon administration introduced the "Buy American" rules in response and then got Boeing to design and build the LRV to meet those rules.

That's also my recollection. Boeing (at least back then) made some of the best aircraft in the world but had no experience with making transit vehicles, and it showed.

Again IIRC, their work was further complicated b/c the "Buy American" rules were so detailed that even low-level parts like bolts and other fasteners were specified by lawmakers. Perhaps an urban legend but given that Congress has inserted itself into Amtrak's café-car prices it wouldn't surprise me.