Security out of hand.

That's it, Head....

Just don't make a scene.

The topic of public vs. private property is an interesting one that was examined by the courts about 15 years ago when the Railroad prosecuted individuals who were electioneering on station platforms. It's a case that's taught today in most law schools. The courts also revisited the issue when throngs of alcoholic bums littered Penn Station's hallways every night.

Railroad property is private property, but the railroad "gives license" to the general public to enter certain areas. This the Railroad could not stop politicians for electioneering or distributing flyers at its stations. Nor can they stop you from traversing its public areas in connection with your affairs.

But, the judge ruled, the Railroad could establish rules for the protection of its customers. It can set aside areas for customers who have paid. It can prohibit sitting or reclining on floors, etc.

The photo issue isn't related to Railroad rules. The Railroad had such rules at one time and actually issued "photo permits" through the mid-1980's. There are federal and state laws (cited in another post several months ago) that can be used against photographers of utilities and common carriers.

If Attorney General Spitzer cares enough to research and reply to your request, and I doubt he will, he will cite those laws. Anyone who is familiar with him knows what he's about and knows what kind of reply he'll give. He'll tell you whatever will get a vote.

Send him two letters -- one pro photography and one outraged at photographers, and watch nonsense he writes back.

The best place for any hobbyist, who is interest in the affairs of a private concern in my opinion, is to remain invisible.

The police have better things to do and will do them unless they get complaints or are exceptionally bored.

Clem,

Great post, man, seriously. I have to say that it was really well-researched and informative; thanks for that.

I am aware of the public vs. private space case you speak of, it is quite famous. I would like to build off of what you have said already: I, as a monthly ticket holder for travel b/w zones 1 and 4, am entitled to be present in LIRR stations in said zones, providing I am not engaged in any unlawful activity. Correct? Thus, an officer has no right to do more than ask my reason for being there and to verify I am not loitering, which would be unlawful; he has no right to inspect what I have taken photos of, and cannot legally require that I present him with identification or my personal information. These are all things my friends and I have experienced at the hands of MTA police officers.

Neither the LIRR nor the state nor the federal government has any law restricting photography of commuter rail equipment beyond regulations on what type of photographic equipment may be used. I believe that this would further support my contention that the MTA police would have no right to question a photographer beyond what his business there is. Certainly they have no probable cause to conduct a search.

I look forward to hearing back from you Clem. I think we could have a really good discussion here.

-kyle

Something I wanted add: Spitzer is a real piece of work, and probably wouldn't pay any attention my letter under normal circumstances. However, the MTA is already in hot water b/c of their financial troubles and we the commuters are getting more and more pissed off with the fare hikes and whatnot. I think if the right perosn in his office reads the letter, it may light a fire under his a$$ to take some action. After all, the MTA claims to carry millions of people a day, and those are millions of potential voters.

The whole MTA wide security propoganda is the main problem. And part of that is the harassment of photographers. I was "harassed" once at the LIRR Westbury station last year. I was taking some photos of the trains that reverse track (including 2 M-1/3s side by side) during the PM rush hour. I was there for about 10 minutes when an MTA Police officer approached me. I knew it was about the photography, as I should've gotten out of there after an engineer on a passing M-7 gave me a weird look after I took a photo of the train. I was on the eastbound platform but moved to the westbound one to get a different angle. That's when the cop approached me. Anyway at first he was very suspicious, he said I wasn't supposed to be taking photos due to 9-11. I responded I thought this was a free country and think the crackdown on photographers is ridiculous. But I added that I knew he was just doing his job, as most cops have to respond to calls even if they turn out false. He asked what I was taking photos for. I just said I was railfan and at the time I just wanted to get a photo of a Bi-level coming through. He asked me for my name and ID. I didn't have my wallet on me (I live in the area) so he took down my name, address, and number. He let me continue to take the photo of the Bi-level train as it passed but advised me to leave thereafter as someone else would probably call it in again. Fortunately in my case the cop was friendly and understood my hobby.
I'm more annoyed with the engineer than anyone else, the cop has no choice, they have to respond to calls and follow orders. He did say that an engineer called me in.
After that experience though I really stopped taking photos at train stations for extended periods of time. I generally take a few photos for scenic purposes and am then out of there.
I know this sounds crazy but last week I took exactly ONE photo of the tracks from a street in Glen Head. There was a man walking his dog and a woman parked in an SUV who saw me. As I'm waiting for the bus I see an MTA Police car heading toward the area where I was at before. Coincidence? It's exactly why I don't hang around.
The paranoia at the MTA is getting out of hand. I'll be honest I have some psychological problems and have been through several traumatic experiences (loss of loved ones) in my life. I have dwelled on the losses for quite some time, but my therapist always tell me I have to move on. Dwelling on something is NOT productive. Perhaps the folks at the MTA need some counseling too. It's been almost 4 years since 9-11, we have to move on and stop looking for the terrorist over our shoulder. Besides, the whole idea behind terrorism is to make people scared. Sadly, it has worked. This whole "If You See Something, Say Something" campaign has gotten out of hand. It's not only messed with citizens enjoying their civil liberties, it has needlessly inconvienced and delayed commuters. Since any empty bag sounds a full scale alarm. And now they've got posters all over the trains saying "please take your belongings or we will" and it shows a robot approaching an empty suitcase. Talk about an overeaction.
Our President talks about the cowardice of terrorists. But aren't we being cowardice by trading our civil rights and lifestyle for fear? I've written politicians and representatives from both parties about the issue, they have not responded. The paranoia is not a political thing, it's widespread throughout our government and society. It seems we have a real case of psycological paranoia. Maybe having psychological counseling should be a mandatory thing just like grade school.

168,

Great hearing from you. Yes, your monthly ticket certainly gives license to ride trains and engage in any activities consistant with the riding of trains and use of the Railroad's services.

But understand that there are several federal laws that prohibit photographing things that clearly fit the description of railroads. The flow of legislation accompanying the Patriot Act is full of stuff that allows you to be prosecuted for filming or photographing utilities, carriers and the like.

Of course you could play the hard line with this, demand you be arrested, demand a court order to see your stuff and all that. But in the worse case, if you are obnixious enough you could be detained for a long time and face a substantial federal fine.

Piney,

I agree with you completely and could say volumes about the motivation of those you seek to abridge the rights of innocent taxpayers.

Clem

Hey again Clem,

Not to put you on the spot or anything, but where did you come across these federal laws that include references to railroads? The only law I am aware of on a federal level regarding rail photography is a 1940-something law prohibiting photography of military rail equipment during wartime. The reason I ask about this is because although I would love to challenge the MTA police on their practices, any arrest (evem w/o conviction) endangers my full ride to college. This is why I am pursuing the letter to A.G. Spitzer, even though it may fruitless; I want to know what I can and cannot do w/o having to deal with an arrest.

Piney,

You make a good point about the cop just doing his job. If they are called, they have to respond, and I too respect that. My problem is with the ones who wait around for you to pull out the camera and then come running over to make trouble (I get this a lot in LIC). Moreover, there is a point where doing the job crosses a line, such as when they demand to review the pictures on a camera.

-kyle

Clemuel wrote:168,

Great hearing from you. Yes, your monthly ticket certainly gives license to ride trains and engage in any activities consistant with the riding of trains and use of the Railroad's services.

But understand that there are several federal laws that prohibit photographing things that clearly fit the description of railroads. The flow of legislation accompanying the Patriot Act is full of stuff that allows you to be prosecuted for filming or photographing utilities, carriers and the like.

Of course you could play the hard line with this, demand you be arrested, demand a court order to see your stuff and all that. But in the worse case, if you are obnixious enough you could be detained for a long time and face a substantial federal fine.

Piney,

I agree with you completely and could say volumes about the motivation of those you seek to abridge the rights of innocent taxpayers.

Clem

What you have said is exactly why I feel the Patriot Act has gone too far in certain areas. Also those extra patrols can't be helping the MTA's budget situation. I still fear that's not over as more service cuts and fare hikes are on the horizon meanwhile farepayer/taxpayer money is spent on police running to "photographer calls".

I have a real good one for all of you.

Today another forum member and I went for a joy ride on the Long Beach branch. we took some pics at Valley and Long Beach.

In long beach there WAS an MTA police car with a total of 2 officers. we were still able to procede with this pic.

So that means that if Ali Alkabob disided to blast away Long Beach he would have been givin the high ball.

well, what explains such acts on the MTAPD's part. How is this protecting the RR's Passengers and Employees.

I told my friend not to take an immage of the cop/cop car. but now I regret that dicission as that pic shure would have looked good posted on this forum. and would have been a good "ID" card to carry around to present to other cops that hassle us.

7285- that's a pretty reckless statement above... care to re-examine it?

You really need to give this grudge against the police a rest. Remember- you can always come back another day.

-otto-

Right Otto,

I usally do come back another day. and equpt with a partiner with a scanner.

I just wanted to get some responces in how when the officers are present, they seem to be careless but then when ther called in they flip out sometimes.

my father is a ret. NYPD officer from the QNTF i know some of this cop gig and i know that its not always the officers its the people above the dept.

Now be careful with the scanner. Prior to 9/11 in many areas "scanning" POLICE frequencies is illegal. I know of nothing on the books against RR frequencies.

While I sympathize and try to accomodate any shutterbugs I think we need to take a break here.

I'm coming in kind of late here, but to say "it's almost been four years now" suggesting that we relax our guard is kind of crass. Tell that to the over 3000 people who lost their lives that day.

As far as transportation (and this goes for bridges, tunnels, buses, subways and railroads) there have been terror busts already made where diagrams, drawings and PICTURES of transportation facilities have been discovered.

I'm not a fan of the Patriot Act either, but how "harrased" do you think the Rail Fans in Spain are after the horror and death in Madrid? As long as there is a threat we have to watch ourselves.

After all is said and done, most of these stories have resulted to being asked for ID and purpose for being there and being left alone. I'm sorry, if you can't handle that, but they are doing their job.

Put yourself in our shoes ... nobody wants to be the one that lets the wrong person on.

I was walking along the East River Drive bike path this weekend, taking photos of birds, boats, buildings, flowers, people, etc.

Along comes one of those highspeed USCG pontoon boats with the machine guns front and rear. He sees me taking his picture and he stops dead. I am sure they either took my picture themselves or just checked me out with binoculars. I didn't look at them and just continued to walk along. After a few seconds they roared away.

Add USCG craft to the forbidden photo list.

Otto Vondrak wrote:You really need to give this grudge against the police a rest. Remember- you can always come back another day.

Here's the thing, Otto: they don't give it a rest. While there are some MTA cops who are genuinely good at their jobs and treat everyone (even railfans) with respect, there are even more who think they're the militia and can demand whatever they want of people. Unfortunately, these are the ones we usually encounter. I'm sure you can understand our frustration. I don't think anyone here hates the police, we hate how some of them act.

"All persons on or in any facility or conveyance of the Authority shall:
Comply with all lawful orders and directives of any transit police officer or Authority employee acting within the scope of his or her employment;
Obey any instructions on notices or signs duly posted on any Authority facility or conveyance; and
Provide accurate, complete and true information or documents requested by transit officers or other Authority personnel acting within the scope of their employment and otherwise in accordance with law." - MTA Rules of Conduct

This is a direct quotation from the MTA Rules of Conduct. I love the phrase "within the scope of employment;" the scope of employment is "to maintain a safe environment for employees and passengers of the MTA." So basically, this justifies them doing anything so long as they claim to be acting in the interest of safety.

You were right, 10 Legion and others, i was wrong to insult the MTA police. It is their bosses, the MTA executives, who have the militia complex; this wording gives them lisence to do whatever they want, and they would simply be following their rules of engagement.

Joining into this late too.. I agree with the right to shoot what and where you want. But use your head, and shoot another time and another place. No one needs a debate on a platform with a badge.

As far as the scanner goes, that and a partner "lookout" will make your activities seem even more suspicious. The police need to focus on what goes on the trains, not on who wants a picture of them.

If you are a railfan, then know schedules, show up a minute before the train arrives, snap the images, and get out of Dodge. Hanging around and lingering is what gets the 'concerned public' in a tizzy.

Just a few thoughts