Return of Daily LD Service

justalurker66 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:57 pm Dining not returning is being pushed by the same crowd that claimed daily service would never return.

I know you're talking to me, Mr. Lurker.

Lest we forget "I was there" as a lowering Management Trainee with the MILW on A-Day. I guess you could say one of the "perks" was using the same washroom as the "higher ups". When Amtrak ordered the Superliners during '74, "those walls and these ears" heard "they've ordered new cars; we'll be stuck with those trains for the next thirty years".

Well thirty has become fifty and as the advocates hope, forever; and they were supposed to be gone starting long about '76. The '79 Carter Cuts were supposed to be "the beginning of the end"; afraid that didn't get too far beyond the Floridian and National Limited.

I'd feel better if Amtrak paid the "opportunity cost" of a priority container train that roads are deprived of running owing to Amtrak and their Bargain Basement remuneration. "The Gospel According to Saint Elwood" (PSR) looks at the entire railroad for a several day period as one integrated piece much as would an experienced Train Dispatcher look at his territory for his trick (have trains meet so the crews could change and get home same day "under the Law" thus saving meals, lodging, and possibly HAFHT).

As a disclaimer, I no longer get any kind of "high" from an LD train ride. My most recent Jan '20, and likely final, Auto Train ride shall we say "did it".

I am willing to make the railroads accept Amtrak trains at low prices; the railroads are allowed to operate a rather dangerous set of machines on unfenced rights of way that, for most route miles, they got via eminent domain or public land grants. We wouldn't let a factory leave its doors open and hold the factory harmless when trespassers got hurt or killed, but that's what we do with trains. That kind of inherited legal privilege, which even includes pretty strong rights to use public space (by blocking streets), seems to me to justify a certain amount of below-cost access to the system. On the other hand I am also willing to have Amtrak pay more if in exchange they get to run multiple daily trains on time on ambitious schedules.

As for dining, I would like to see Amtrak combine cafe and dining services into one nice car with a menu made up of really good versions of intrinsically cheap food served in an efficient and pleasant way: walk-up service at a counter with a couple good grill cooks behind it selling really good burgers, high-end frozen pizzas cooked in convection ovens, real eggs, that sort of thing. Wouldn't a great burger for $10 or $15 be better than a mediocre steak for $30 (also has an obvious and simple vegetarian version)? Continuous service except late night. Maybe a separate counter or position for the chips-and-candy and playing cards and whatnot. Give the sleeper pax vouchers for $x to spend on anything they want, rather than blanket free meals and no snacks; give all pax discounts, or maybe access to special meals, if they order them online or by phone n days beforehand.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:28 pm

justalurker66 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:57 pm Dining not returning is being pushed by the same crowd that claimed daily service would never return.

I know you're talking to me, Mr. Lurker.

Not specifically ... I said "crowd" not "poster" and unless you are multiple people you are not a crowd.

The deep dark evil scheme to kill off Amtrak seems to either be a false plan or just another thing Amtrak can't do right. The reader can decide.

Just like aircraft, Amtrak locomotives and cars have "time date" maintenance items. Those items that expired while in storage owing to the frequency reductions will need to be addressed before the affected equipment can be returned to service.

Oh well, seems like one more item that could have been avoided if the frequency cuts could have become permanent:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... d=msedgntp

Arborwayfan wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:29 pm I am willing to make the railroads accept Amtrak trains at low prices; the railroads are allowed to operate a rather dangerous set of machines on unfenced rights of way that, for most route miles, they got via eminent domain or public land grants. We wouldn't let a factory leave its doors open and hold the factory harmless when trespassers got hurt or killed, but that's what we do with trains. That kind of inherited legal privilege, which even includes pretty strong rights to use public space (by blocking streets), seems to me to justify a certain amount of below-cost access to the system. On the other hand I am also willing to have Amtrak pay more if in exchange they get to run multiple daily trains on time on ambitious schedules.

Prof. Martens, I have a lot of difficulty accepting such a position (you've had a student argue with a position you've set forth in class; haven't you?). Yes, railroads were granted land (not my MILW, lest we note, for Lines West), and often in nature and scope far beyond that needed to build a railroad. The argument has been put forth on these pages that such required the road to operate passenger trains into perpetuity.

Ain't so; find me a reference to such in any of the several Land Grant acts.

Your position has much the same overtones; the fact remains that the railroad was there first; and it's the people from the communities developed lineside that create the public nuisance. All well and good back when railroads could and did make a buck handling passengers; not so well and good as roads concentrated on their bread and butter line of business. Ideally, as roads discontinued passenger service, the lines should have been relocated away from the center of the communities they once served; but anyone about to "pass the hat" for such?

Unless the LD equipment was sent off to cold storage somewhere, the yard and shop crews could have still done all the time driven preventative maintenance. I know it was happening on airplanes in warm storage (e.g. ready to reactivate within 24 hours)...

Passengers are just live freight. Very few railroads were built as passenger only or even passenger primary lines. Nearly every line carried both, often in mixed trains. There was a heyday of fast dedicated passenger trains but that was relatively short lived as passengers found faster or more convenient ways to travel.

There is no blanket statement that applies to ROW acquisition. Some railroads were given ROW, others had to purchase their land. Most have ROWs where the railroad is on separate plots of land, others run on easements - if the railroad goes the land goes back to the owner.

There are places where rails are no longer needed and re-routes would be useful. Looking at Chicago the downtown "loop" area once hosted several large yards right next to the river. The IC's yard on the waterfront was the last to go. These were freight yards. Most had a passenger station nearby, but the railroads were built for freight - including people as freight.

Observed #5(22).

I don't know if Daily frequency has yet been restored, but the ten car consist looked "business as usual:

2 P'42 (lead #7)
V-Bagg
390XX Dorm
3 Sleeper
Diner
Lounge
3 Coach

Advocates should be "happy happy"; to me an opportunity to start what should have been done forty years ago, has been lost.

Daily Service returning Monday, May 24:
California Zephyr (Chicago – Omaha – Denver – Salt Lake City – San Francisco)
Coast Starlight (Seattle – Portland – Sacramento – Oakland – Los Angeles
Empire Builder (Chicago – St. Paul-Minneapolis – Spokane – Portland/Seattle)
Texas Eagle (Chicago – St. Louis – Dallas – San Antonio – Los Angeles)

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 3:01 pm Observed #5(22).

I don't know if Daily frequency has yet been restored, but the ten car consist looked "business as usual:

2 P'42 (lead #7)
V-Bagg
390XX Dorm
3 Sleeper
Diner
Lounge
3 Coach

Advocates should be "happy happy"; to me an opportunity to start what should have been done forty years ago, has been lost.

Three Sleepers + Dorm on the California Zephyr! That’s a great increase in sleeper capacity to start off daily service. My regular “one” of two a year trips on LD trains is now complete and I must say that I have never seen the sleepers so busy to was what they were in my travels in early May.

Believe me, I get it, “the opportunity” has slipped by as I thought for sure this was going to be it. Perhaps not the greatest exit but one that has long been expected. But here’s another interesting observation from “trip two of two” back in October 2020:

- Trains West of The Miss had only ONE LSA working the kitchen and serving at first, but by return trip, the “chef” was recalled (the one who puts the prepared meals in the microwave and then presents on the cardboard/plastic cut out trays)........

Now, on trip one of two in May 2021 - chef, two service staff, head LSA. Head LSA going to training and talking about the return of table cloths (short of flowers though!), and the return of China (does Amtrak just keep a warehouse of China plates and cups etc., or do they buy new every time they spin around this roller coaster with dining services). They do not know what type of food will be served (created from scratch, how much pre-prepared, etc.)., but its supposed to be a step up, but short of a surf and turf special done medium well.

The F&B staff seemed to be recalled and tripping over each other, as compared to October. But I guess that’s expected with soon to be daily service going back in to play.

And speaking of this roller coaster ride of Amtrak, the events of the past year (and how the government dealt with various sectors), makes me think back (again), would it have just been better if the government left passenger services with the original private railroads and merely provided a subsidy to cover the costs? Had they had the fortune of 20/20 hindsight, I have to wonder. But in ‘71 - Amtrak would shed them of the pesky passenger rail service once and for all. Would that have prevented some of the constant re-invention of the wheel every four years of so? After all, Amtrak has to please Congress overall, and therein gives rise to - “I want a train in my state.” Tough battle with the LD trains - and tougher when seeing many on a sellout basis even in tri-weekly service. Sleepers/private rooms, were especially booked up and paying the outrageous prices in the grand scheme of supply and demand......

From reviewing the website, it appears that from my "observation point" - namely BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18 or thereabouts - #5 Zephyr will again be Daily Monday May 24; #3 Chief same Monday May 31.

However, it will not be until Monday July 19, that #381, Carl Sandburg, presently annulled, will return.

I have a trip planned in mid June from NYC to Albuquerque and return a week later. I booked this trip back when they announced they were going back to daily so as soon as the bookings for the then off days became available I booked roomettes on the LSL & SWC out and back. Just this morning I pretended to book myself on the same trains out and back on the same dates and the price was over 1,000 dollars more than what I paid for the trip (almost double). They only had 2 roomettes left available on the LSL and none on the SWC. That's three weeks out. Both trains said 90% full with only a few coach seats available for the same premium price % rise as the sleepers. People are riding them even if they have to put up with flex-dining on the western trains. Just saying.

I think that Amtrak can "color themselves lucky" that the roads did not require them, under both RPSA70 and ARAA97, to "come to the table and negotiate in good faith" the return of Daily frequency for the "slots" they vacated.

I'll bet they could have; but evidently they chose not. Had they done so, those trains might have continued tri-weekly indefinitely. The roads could have held "you vacated those slots. You want 'em back? Well that is going to cost you "a mite bite" more than this "incremental cost you pay under the preexisting Agreement".

Had the roads been hard nosed, rather than the softies I think they were, there could have been the same confrontation Amtrak is looking at with regards to Mobile-NO, where the roads have to date prevailed. After all, it could be argued that it is simply a reinstatement of a suspended service.

Mr Norman, do you like Amtrak or are you one of those who wish the system will fail?

Do you truly believe that failure to operate a train is automatic forfeiture of the slot? If so, how many trains need to be missed before the slot is forfeited?

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 3:16 pm I think that Amtrak can "color themselves lucky" that the roads did not require them, under both RPSA70 and ARAA97, to "come to the table and negotiate in good faith" the return of Daily frequency for the "slots" they vacated.

I'll bet they could have; but evidently they chose not. Had they done so, those trains might have continued tri-weekly indefinitely. The roads could have held "you vacated those slots. You want 'em back? Well that is going to cost you "a mite bite" more than this "incremental cost you pay under the preexisting Agreement".

Had the roads been hard nosed, rather than the softies I think they were, there could have been the same confrontation Amtrak is looking at with regards to Mobile-NO, where the roads have to date prevailed. After all, it could be argued that it is simply a reinstatement of a suspended service.

And do you think Amtrak would have gone tri-weekly if they had to renegotiate for the old slots. I don't think so! They would have run "equipment moves" in those slots. And as much as you say otherwise passenger trains are here to stay.