Reasonable Long Term Hopes

How about trolley bus down rt 1 to neshaminy mall? Enough buses use it now, would make it safer and faster to get to from other parts of Philly...?

And, once again, the idea (one I may have prodded into being) is the PENNDOT takeover, with expansion up the eastern counties... Call it penn east transit? PennRail, have a PennRail west for the western half of the state, have 1-2 connecting services, via lock haven, other routes?

But yea, we need to breathe the life back into this comatose system. The idea of cutting less popular bus and trains vs try to make them more popular makes ZERO sense, and frankly it pisses me off a lot.

25Hz wrote:How about trolley bus down rt 1 to neshaminy mall? Enough buses use it now, would make it safer and faster to get to from other parts of Philly...?

And, once again, the idea (one I may have prodded into being) is the PENNDOT takeover, with expansion up the eastern counties... Call it penn east transit? PennRail, have a PennRail west for the western half of the state, have 1-2 connecting services, via lock haven, other routes?

But yea, we need to breathe the life back into this comatose system. The idea of cutting less popular bus and trains vs try to make them more popular makes ZERO sense, and frankly it pisses me off a lot.

It's amazing that in spite of the cuts in service, ridership has grown, particularly in Regional Rail. Those this isn't capital, I honestly believe that the Manayunk/Norristown Line should be the next Regional Rail line to have 30 minute maximum headways during the middays and Saturdays, similar to the Paoli line. With Manayunk and the development going on in Conshohocken and the Norristown area, why not (other than funding)?

Should be top on their list since they plan on replacing the aem7's and alp44. Septa already has the coaches and would now be able to go outside the electrified territory.

dreese_us wrote:Should be top on their list since they plan on replacing the aem7's and alp44. Septa already has the coaches and would now be able to go outside the electrified territory.

Replacing the ALP44 and AEM7's will be with an add-on to the order of Siemens Intercity Sprinters that Amtrak is buying. They run ONLY under catenary.

The non-electrified territories line Quakertown, Newtown, and West Chester need rebabs or replacement of almost all track, bridges, and signaling and ADA compliant stations. AND dual-powered locomotives. Your carts are a little before your horses.

Clearfield wrote:The non-electrified territories line Quakertown, Newtown, and West Chester need [...]carts [...] horses.

Bob, I agree with your rationale completely. We should start proposing horse-drawn carts instead of locomotives. What a great idea!

scotty269 wrote:

Clearfield wrote:The non-electrified territories line Quakertown, Newtown, and West Chester need [...]carts [...] horses.

Bob, I agree with your rationale completely. We should start proposing horse-drawn carts instead of locomotives. What a great idea!

It's a concept that the rural legislators can embrace and sell to their constituents.

NorthPennLimited wrote:The current electrical infrastructure is maxed out. Have you been at Suburban Station lately around 5:00-5:30pm when the electrical system overloads and looses power for 5 or 10 mins? Extending the catenary anywhere on the northern side of the system is just putting more strain on an electrical system that is already maxed out ( and almost 100 years old).

Actually, the power for Suburban comes from the AMTRAK side where SEPTA just built a new substation to replace the old 1A. The actual power comes from AMTRAK (who DOES have their own power issues).

If the cat in Suburban goes dead its not the fault of the Wayne Sub.

Clearfield wrote:

NorthPennLimited wrote:The current electrical infrastructure is maxed out. Have you been at Suburban Station lately around 5:00-5:30pm when the electrical system overloads and looses power for 5 or 10 mins? Extending the catenary anywhere on the northern side of the system is just putting more strain on an electrical system that is already maxed out ( and almost 100 years old).

Actually, the power for Suburban comes from the AMTRAK side where SEPTA just built a new substation to replace the old 1A. The actual power comes from AMTRAK (who DOES have their own power issues).

If the cat in Suburban goes dead its not the fault of the Wayne Sub.

indeed, the mp's on the harrisburg line are to suburban station not 30th st. I don't think there's a particularly issue adding trains to amtrak's power system in this location.
the real reason we see no interest in west chester or phoenixville for that matter is that the folks at chesco planning don't care. they are interested in seeing expanded services to highly populated, congested places like atglen and leaving small places with no traffic to their own devices...you know, west chester, phoenixville. sorry for the sarcasm but their goals make no sense. phoenixville and west chester are both dense, walkable places with poor direct highway connections which makes them good candidates for transit..and its also what makes them attractive. bucks funded an extension to quakertown. SEPTA can't fund these expansions themslves but they wouldn't have to. the question is can they operate them and I think the answer is yes. improvements to the remaining system should reduce the operating subsidy. adding places like WC or pville would add a lot of ridership

But are Phoenixville, West Chester, or even Atglen, full of dense people who want to ride towards and to Philadelphia? Or does much of their population want instead to go towards and to the many scattered employment and shopping areas around their towns that don't and won't have rail transit?

Getting back on topic, do the people in Newtown whom others have mentioned commute to New York actually go to Penn Station, or even Manhatten itself? Or do they go to many of the scattered employment areas in North Jersey?

Patrick Boylan wrote:But are Phoenixville, West Chester, or even Atglen, full of dense people who want to ride towards and to Philadelphia? Or does much of their population want instead to go towards and to the many scattered employment and shopping areas around their towns that don't and won't have rail transit?

Getting back on topic, do the people in Newtown whom others have mentioned commute to New York actually go to Penn Station, or even Manhatten itself? Or do they go to many of the scattered employment areas in North Jersey?

There are legitimate plans for a new station for Atglen's original station location. IIRC, the new PARK interlocking is adjacent to that location so SEPTA could run trains as far as Atglen and turn them back to the city. That move would restore SEPTA service to Coatesville, and Parkesburg as well.

Clearfield, why did you quote me? I don't see anything in your post that addresses my questions about where one expects the Phoenixville, West Chester, or even Atglen, people want to ride. And despite my feeble attempt to get back on topic, you did not mention Newtown.
Could you perhaps find or start a different thread about where Atglen station will be, or where PARK interlocking is, or SEPTA running trains as far as Atglen and turning them back to the city, or restoring SEPTA service to Coatesville, and Parkesburg, which are the only things I see in your post?

Patrick Boylan wrote:But are Phoenixville, West Chester, or even Atglen, full of dense people who want to ride towards and to Philadelphia? Or does much of their population want instead to go towards and to the many scattered employment and shopping areas around their towns that don't and won't have rail transit?

Getting back on topic, do the people in Newtown whom others have mentioned commute to New York actually go to Penn Station, or even Manhatten itself? Or do they go to many of the scattered employment areas in North Jersey?

no, yes , yes for atglen , wc , and pville. keep in mind the pville extension also serves conshohocken amd potentially city line if ivy ridge service is restored.
atglen is silly and shows how disconnected planners are from people. newtown is also a good line thoigh id side with pville as most beneficial since there is no nearby station in reality wed want newtown , pville , and west chester

Patrick Boylan wrote:But are Phoenixville, West Chester, or even Atglen, full of dense people who want to ride towards and to Philadelphia? Or does much of their population want instead to go towards and to the many scattered employment and shopping areas around their towns that don't and won't have rail transit?

I currently live in Pottstown, and did live in Phoenixville in the 90s. I am no more then 5 miles away from the former Septa (RDG) Train Station in Pottstown. It would take me 7 mins to get there, I have actually timed it. I am but one individual who loves living out in the farms and sticks of the rural Phoenixville\Pottstown area, but who had to drive to Paoli to catch my daily train to the city.

It would take me 35-45 minutes to get to Paoli, to ride a train for 40-55 minutes into Suburban Station.

I would gladly have taken a 7 min drive to the Station in Pottstown to have taken a light rail train to Norristown, the Schuylkill Valley Metro plan, and transfer to the Septa Region Rail into Center City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuylkill_Valley_Metro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That would have been better then the drive to Paoli.

The never built R6 Extension, direct Region Rail from Pottstown into Center City, would have been even better and faster. So I would have to believe that Septa would indeed have riders if they reactivated service.

Does anyone have the passenger counts from when Septa ran the trains out here? Surely they exist and can be used to figure out some basic ridership projections?

NorthPennLimited wrote:This is all a pipe dream. SEPTA barely has the necessary capital funding for "state of good repair" projects. That means, SEPTA has just enough allowance money to keep buying band-aides and duct tape, and no money for expansion projects. You would have to completely rebuild the line past Fox Chase. ADA passenger stations, PTC, cab signaling, a diamond at Bethayres........it's not worth the trouble.

The current electrical infrastructure is maxed out. Have you been at Suburban Station lately around 5:00-5:30pm when the electrical system overloads and looses power for 5 or 10 mins? Extending the catenary anywhere on the northern side of the system is just putting more strain on an electrical system that is already maxed out ( and almost 100 years old). You think the people of Newtown want a railroad substation in their town leaking PCB's into the ground water?

If you want to keep dreaming about expansion, the BIGGEST bang for the buck would be service west of Norristown to Pottstown or Linfield. The track is already good for 50-60mph, you just need diesels with compatable PTC systems to the NS system, and some ADA upgrades to the stations. The population densities and traffic patterns best fit this line. It is also in a prime position with current sprawl trends to builds transit-oriented developments (or TOD's).

If you look at the operating ratios and ridership numbers on the Fox Chase Line in SEPTA's annual reports, it's obvious why it is a total waste of money to sink ANY expansion money into that line.

What PCB's, those are banned? The idea is to replace substations & increase traction power availability, so that point is moot. You're acting like re-activation would be the only thing going on, which is contrary to fact.

The topic isnt either or, the topic isnt bang for buck, the crux of the topic is what it will really take to get service restored, and i think dual modes on top of ACS-64 would be amazing. You could run dual modes all day and night cat power or not, except diesel through the CCCT. the idea here is to see what IS possible, not sit like a NIMBY and list all the barriers and no solutions. I think we're all very aware of the problems and challenges in restoring service to newtown, and how far down on the priority list it really is. Service to philly sprawl is its own issue. This is about what is possible, so maybe focus on that in future posts?

Like i said before, getting the line back to a state of good repair should be a priority, that way if they do want to run trains, it's a lot less daunting, as all of the "dirty work" will have been long completed. Replace the bridges, repair the embankments, put in that diamond even if the track only goes 10 feet to either side, clear that brush, put some ballast down. Put out feelers for costs to do electrification & signaling & track installation, see about adding or lengthening sidings, tweak the schedule & see what that would need to look like...... really get an idea of how much time and money it will take, and then take the next step and see about stations and funding for greenlighting the restoration of service.

Patrick Boylan wrote:Clearfield, why did you quote me?

I quoted you because you referenced Atglen which currently has no service, but will with little effort.

I didn't mention Newtown because service to it only exists as a fantasy in the minds of railfans, and not in the minds of anyone able or willing to restore it.