RE: Locked threads

[JoeG]

When I saw the note by Col Perkowski referred to by GP80MAC I, too, was kind of startled. After all, the kid who started the thread was explicitly asking for "dreams." I was on the point of sending Col P a PM about it, but I had to run. When I next logged on, I saw a funny thing: His tough note had actually improved the discussion, causing posters to think more carefully about what they were posting. Like Col P, I am often annoyed by posts that suggest that in the next fiscal year Amtrak buy 500 sleepers, 100 diners and 1000 new coaches to allow a terrific route expansion. On the other hand, there has to be some leeway for fantasy and whimsy on a discussion forum. I think the new moderators are feeling their way in doing a difficult job. Also, I note that Mr Vondrak insists that politicts be kept off this forum. This is a particularly tough rule for me, since I think a lot of Amtrak issues are inherently political. On the other hand, I have to admit that most political controversies here have degenerated into flame wars.
Folks, the new mods respond promptly to PMs. If you have issues, please let them know what they are. But they need to be allowed to develop their own style of moderating. If the Amtrak forum didn't have a fairly tough moderator it would degenerate into Internet idiocy failry quickly.

[pablo]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Otto, Mike, someone, you have got to get control of this nonsense.

If anyone would like, I can post directions on how to lead an effective discussion, how to manage an effective discussion, and how to redirect an ineffective discussion. I'm an English teacher, and I get paid to do stuff like that.

Discussions that aren't regimented as though through fascism will often take you to surprising places, both good and bad. The bad is easy to solve. The good? I'm sure we all can figure that out.

It's as though we have two little wizards behind a curtain pulling strings drunk with whatever power this has given them. Who's going to tear down the curtain and get it over with?

I'd make a facetious comment "Pablo for Amtrak Moderator", but I don't think this is funny anymore.

Dave Becker

[pablo]

JoeG, I didn't mean my last post towards you. I hope you didn't think I did. You got in before I did.

About your comments, you're right. To be honest, I'm tired of these morons posting about the rumoroed NS-BNSF merger and Pan-Am mass locomotive pruchases and NS buying NYSW, etc. etc. etc. I would, quite honestly, eliminate some people from posting until they read more about what they speak.

I too have seen people suggest such silly things on the Amtrak forum that I almost want to find where they live and slap them silly. I have little time for that, and were I a moderator, I'd work to put the kibosh on that.

I would also crack down on these geniuses with 7 different aliases.

That's all neither here nor there. I'm all for locking a thread when it gets stupid, or if there are three of the same topic, etc. I think the New York forum, by Otto, is very well run. You might disagree with me, and that's fine. What's happening at Amtrak now is simply absurd. Look at some of the names that are disgruntled. It's not just SRS/scharnhorst types, they're moderators too. That should tell us all something.

Dave Becker

[F3A]

That's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Otto, Mike, someone, you have got to get control of this nonsense.

If anyone would like, I can post directions on how to lead an effective discussion, how to manage an effective discussion, and how to redirect an ineffective discussion. I'm an English teacher, and I get paid to do stuff like that.

Discussions that aren't regimented as though through fascism will often take you to surprising places, both good and bad. The bad is easy to solve. The good? I'm sure we all can figure that out.

It's as though we have two little wizards behind a curtain pulling strings drunk with whatever power this has given them. Who's going to tear down the curtain and get it over with?

I'd make a facetious comment "Pablo for Amtrak Moderator", but I don't think this is funny anymore.

Dave Becker

FINALLY!

Someone is getting the message here. Thank you Pablo...Well said!

What these two gentlemen are doing is not moderating or even facilitating...it is DICTATING the direction and scope of the discussions to suit how they feel...and without regard to what a participant of the Amtrak forum wishes to discuss.

And that is wrong!

And the sad thing is no one in authority appears to be able (or willing) to do anything about it.

[F3A]

Here is a personal favorite of mine from "Mr. Wigwagfan":

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... ht=#279255

A friendly note from your Moderator, let's please keep this thread on topic.

Discussing the Interstate Highway System, highway funding, or whether truckers pay their fare share is irrelevant to the delays encountered on the Coast Starlight, and messages containing such discussion in this thread will be subject to editing/removal.

Thank you!

[Irish Chieftain]

That's a remarkable statement, especially from the author of this thread. Back then, discussions purely about the Interstate Highway System (and nothing else, on the Amtrak forum no less) were very relevant to said author, not to mention were countenanced by the then-moderator (moderators?)—and now are verboten?

[JoeG]

The new mods seem to want disciplined, focused threads. They seem to think that if our discussions are focused they will be listened to at 60 Mass. I don't believe Mr Halstead would object to a thread discussing the Interstate Hiighway System as it relates to Amtrak; my guess is, he objected to such discussion in a thread about timekeeping on the Starlight.

[henry6]

I have to concur that restricting "dream" discussion to those that have a sourced of funding is out of line with the concept of the forum. If it were a government or official forum for suggestions and planning by professionals involved, yes. But this is a railfans' forum. Dreams and ideas are part of the game as long as they are not portrayed as fact or capable of being misread as fact. This Moderator seems to be a little heavy handed on this one as he has also been on a few others in the past.

[John_Perkowski]

Some brief comments:

First, to my way of thinking, this is not the only forum available to railfans and rail "policy wonks". If you've known me over the years, I was a regular at railforum, under the name PullmanCo. I still read it, but I rarely post there ... my avocation is to read what we have here.

Mr Halstead has also over time been at Trainorders. I just do not use that forum at all, you can ask him in private message if you want whether he is active there right now.

I am following the pattern and guidance Mr Norman set up, and the method of operating he had for several years, both in this version of railroad.net, and in the last. Let's remember he Moderated for over five years.

1) This forum does get read by rail transportation industry professionals (read managers and policy analysts), craftsmen (Messrs 1702 and CZhoghead are examples), wonks, and fans. Some are teens, some are in retirement. That's why Mr Norman insisted on keeping it civil (G-rated), that's why I so also insist.

2) Most of you choose to hide behind the anonymity of your handles. Mr Halstead uses a handle but signs all his messages with his real name. I went away from my handle a few years back. Mr Toy uses his real last name, Mr Norman uses his last name.

3) When I hit the send button at the end of posting this, I will have put something in cyberspace virtually forever. I want my writings to be mature, reasonable, and coherent. I would hope each of you do the same.

4) Mom and Dad taught me an important thing to do each morning is look in the mirror and ask myself if I respect the man looking back. If I do not, there are changes to be made in my life and lifestyle. While I've had growing pains learning to be a moderator in an online forum, I would not change anything I've done to now.

Now, if anyone here wants to PM or email Otto, and offer to step up and Moderate this forum, let him or her so do. Here is what you'll take away from me:

10 hours a week focusing on this forum. Trust me, I have other uses for this time.

Judgment calls.

Setting aside my personal beliefs on Amtrak for the greater good of this forum.

As I recall, very few were asking Mr Vondrak or Mr Norman to step up to the plate a while ago, when Mr Norman indicated his time was done. If you want a second Trainorders Amtrak forum here at railroad net, it's possible. It just will not have my name on the masthead.

John Perkowski

[Otto Vondrak]

I want to say that Mr. Perkowski and Mr. Halstead have the complete support of the RAILROAD.NET staff in their efforts to maintain the Amtrak Forum. They are doing their best to keep the Amtrak discussion focused and on topic. I think what we have here are some misunderstandings while we all go through an adjustment period. Be patient. Things are not in dire straits as some would have us believe. If you feel this method conversation is too restrictive for you, I invite you to explore the other options out there (and there are PLENTY, we're just one site in a sea of thousands).

We want everyone to have a pleasant experience here, and we try to address everyone's concerns. Sometimes we will come to a disagreement on policy and method-- and nothing is set in stone. We all learn something over the years and make adjustments accordingly. If you choose to continue to participate here, I trust your patience will be rewarded with a positive experience.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to voice their concerns.

-otto-

[pablo]

In the continuing interest of For What it's Worth, I'll offer this:

John, your post likely did little to assuage those who use (or would like to use) the Amtrak forum, because, in essence, you didn't address any of the issues, and you also said, in essence, remove me if you want, I have plenty of things I could be doing otherwise. Forgive me if I paraphrased incorrectly.

Where else you might post seems to not matter, unless you are inviting people to see what else you have posted. Again, I'm not sure what that was about, and forgive me if I got that wrong.

It seems that a variety of people have suggested that there has been a change since Mr. Norman left, some of whom are moderators and would be assumed to know the standards Railroad.net has put forth. Many of these comments come from people who know a lot more than me about Amtrak; it doesn't come through my town, never has, and never will. I have also been on Amtrak once, not counting a cab ride in a GG-1 that might have been a NJT unit. (I was a wee little tyke.) Point is, I am not an Amtrak expert, nor will I ever be, but those that know more are the concerned ones.

Point number 1 is very nice, and no one questions it. I have a hard time suggesting that the forum has influenced decisions, but perhaps it has. You don't suggest it has, though point #1's inclusion strikes me as odd.

Point #2 is absolutely fact and something that has frustrated me for years. I never hide behind this name and always sign my posts with my real name, Dave Becker. Anyone making statements about the forum ought to have the courage to use their real name.

No one questions #3. Anything that doesn't conform to said standards should be eliminated or at the very least, edited.

I don't think anyone asks if you respect yourself, and if they do, shame on them. Who cares if they don't respect you here? At the very least, the two moderators of Amtrak are consistent (as I turn to speak to the audience now) which is part of the problem here...consistent in a way people disagree with. Whether or not you respect yourself doesn't seem to fit here...but I hope you do.

Including the things that you have been "restricted" from doing due to this job weakens your overall argument and questions your conviction. I see no reason why your personal beliefs couldn't become part of your "job", as it were. This is America, and you can feel and say whatever you want...and I think that's exactly the point here. Or, it should be. The above examples of restriction are wonderful examples of how not to run a discussion. It's also disingenuous when an example is shown how one day, it's OK to talk about something, and another day, it's not. It's no wonder why people are confused.

I wouldn't necessarily suggest anyone should be changed, removed, etc. Some of this "ill will" can be explained away by the new people on the block being tested, but not all.

Having a second forum, that no doubt someone else suggested along the way privately, would be absurd. I'm sure Otto wouldn't do it, and he shouldn't.

Otto, I couldn't agree with you more...until the end of your first paragraph. No one needs to go anyplace else. I don't see any other site being as complete or useful as this one. That's what makes dumb posts stand out so much, and that's why this is all so troubling.

I'm sure this can get worked out, but the two "sides" here are doing an apples and oranges sotr of discussion...and that never works.

Dave Becker

[F3A]

Including the things that you have been "restricted" from doing due to this job weakens your overall argument and questions your conviction. I see no reason why your personal beliefs couldn't become part of your "job", as it were. This is America, and you can feel and say whatever you want...and I think that's exactly the point here. Or, it should be. The above examples of restriction are wonderful examples of how not to run a discussion. It's also disingenuous when an example is shown how one day, it's OK to talk about something, and another day, it's not. It's no wonder why people are confused.

John, Erik and Otto: Pablo offers very wise advice in the above paragraph. He has probably summed this up much better than I ever could. Thank you once again for you contributions to this thread Pablo!

The issue here is overly-restrictive editing. Its not a bash session, and its not that John and Erik are not nice people. No one here is on a quest or a vendetta against anyone. You must, however, understand the sense of frustration and I and others who post on a regular basis feel, when we cannot have a meaningful dialogue on an issue we as posters feel is significant to the Amtrak Forum. I have posted more than my share of "tongue-in-cheek" comments. At the same time, I have also tried to post opinions on Amtrak that I felt mattered most to me...and I wanted to share them with others. Then when I do post, my comments are either changed radically, or they disappear altogether. Can you at least appreciate the frustration that I can others feel when that happens?

We like it here, we enjoy posting here. I have no intention of going anywhere else. As posters, we are not asking for the world. I also do not believe that were are difficult. We are only asking in the most respectful way we know how, that you modify the way you moderate, to include avoiding as much as possible your overly restrictive editing-deletion practices.

I invite others here to place their opinion(s) on this matter, and I would very much like to have the current Amtrak Moderators (not just Otto) to come in here and lets see if we can get this matter worked out once and for all.

[gp80mac]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm wrong a lot):

First, Mr. Perkowski doesn't seem to care for people who don't use real names. That's OK, I respect that. Just some of us don't like to plaster our names all over the internets. Many of us do have a reason for that. If you wish to ignore my statements from now on, go right ahead. That is your choice.

Second, Mr. Perkowski doesn't wish to waste the time moderating? Am I missing something here? If you have other things to do with you time, please do them. I never understand people that do nothing but complain about voluntary non-essential items like moderating a certain forum.

Third, I just don't like directed responses. I know little about the operations about Amtrak. I'm blessed with a few 3 car trains out here in Amishland. So I do not use Amtrak much at the current time. But being as they are an integral part of my county's transportation system - I do take interest in them as a whole.

Back to the topic: A directed post seems awful childish. I'd expect that in grade school ... but not here. And I could care less who is reading. Sure, there are immature posters here, but they invade every forum. Just like many railfans we meet in real life, we must learn to ignore them.

The benefit of railroad.net is the quality, not the quantity, of posts. They go in depth (more than I can comprehend at times) than the other forums.


I would hate to see that gone.

gp80
long time reader, few time poster.

[UPRR engineer]

I'm a little less then happy with Johns post, id flame the crap out of him right now if i could get away with it. Negative attitude, what a ...... he is...... [Joe Dirt voice].... "DANG!!!!! "

Otto and Mike, still like you site buddies. And thanks for letting us talk about the problem here.

[UPRR engineer]

Think theres enough people here unhappy with Johns tactics to make a post there for a vote asking him to take him to take a break for awhile?

Hey Otto, mind making a Sticky on the Amtrak forum there old buddy? Maybe that will make him understand better. Put up a rule or two up, vote one time and one time only, a simple yes or no if hes doing a good job or not. What do the rest of you think?

Hey wig? Good job buddy, i think you figured it out.