Railroad Forums 

  • Project Prioritization

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #42580  by AlexC
 
A what if....
How would you prioritize Philly area transit projects?

I'd go....
(Generally "easy"/"cheaper")
1) Actually run trolleys on Rt 15. (easy, just FINISH!!!)
2) A couple of daily diesel (RDG push-pull style) roundtrips from 30th St to Reading (just for a flavor)
3) Fkd Jct EL/R7/NJT xfer also North Philly BSS/R7/NJT xfer
4) Better (any?) integration timetable wise with NJT on Trenton/Morrisville and Fkd Jct xfers
5) R3 restoration to Wawa (West Chester would be better, but unlikely)
6) Integration with the Maryland transit authority for Newark DE.... or Elkton,MD?

(Hard, or much harder,"spendy"/"political")
1) Blvd Subway Ext (alot of potential riders)
2) Route 100 to K of P (Beats busses)
3) CCM

Obviously you'd get the low hanging fruit first.... (has that thought occurred to Septa?)
... and everyone will have their own order.
My list is obviously not all encompassing or even the right order... just trying to provoke thought.

 #42695  by jfrey40535
 
You're forgetting Newtown, Quakertown, Stoney Creek and CCM.

Definitely 15 first.

Next easy one would be restoring 23 & 56. Yes the 56 needs work, but c onsider the Kawasaki cars are quickly approaching 25 years. How long will they last? SEPTA should consider a program to replace them with new cars for the subway surface and 23, and put the K's on the 56.

Its too bad so much of our money goes to "studying" projects instead of doing them, but N Philly transfer stations would be another leap forward. Especially Fkd Jct & N Phila/N Broad integration.

Funny though how this organization thinks something like "Smart Stations" are more important than expanded service. Expanded service = more passengers = more $$$ duh! What is so hard about that concept?
 #42745  by Matthew Mitchell
 
Just for the sake of organization, let me post the list of projects that was submitted for consideration at the Destination 2030 forum organized by DVRPC and Dick Voith's think tank.

1--NHSL (route 100) branch to King of Prussia
2--Roosevelt Blvd. rapid transit
3--Trenton to NJ Capitol light rail extension
4--City Branch light rail (52nd St.-Center City via Girard Ave., ex-Reading City Branch (N of Callowhill St)
5--Broad St. Subway extension to Navy Yard (NJ was not considered here)
6--West Trenton-Bound Brook commuter rail restoration
7--Bus Rapid Transit on Route 1 in the Princeton area
8--All-day SEPTA/NJ Transit Clocker service from Center City to New York
9--Schuylkill Valley Metro
10--Cross-County Metro
11--R3 restoration Elwyn-West Chester
12--PATCO or SNJLRT branch into Gloucester County
13--Quakertown/Stony Creek
14--Modernize fare collection
15--Real-time passenger information
16--Extend hours of service and increase frequency
17--Other
 #42746  by Matthew Mitchell
 
AlexC wrote:6) Integration with the Maryland transit authority for Newark DE.... or Elkton,MD?
While this looks like an obvious need from a railfan's perspective, where is the market for such a service??? There's a degree of synergy from the back to back Wilmington and Philadelphia markets (it's always effective to fill the seat twice on a run), but that's not enough to overcome the rather small market for the amount of additional train miles you have to run.
 #42944  by jsc
 
Are these projects that you listed in order, Matt? If so, whose?

I wouldn't quibble with the first two (though I question the order of importance) but would you really put Quakertown below SVM and CCM? SEPTA owns the track after all, though they will have to invest HUGE amounts to reclaim them from nature. No operating dis-agreements or anything like that on this line.

so lets see, my fantasy list (not limited to SEPTA but directly benifiting Philadelphia):

Transit Projects:
1) Rt15
2) increase frequency of MFL, BSS and green lines to current Rush Hour frequencys for longer periods.
3) Roosevelt Bvld subway
4) Rt 100 extension.
5) UCD Circulator
6) Rt 23
7) "city branch" light rail
8) other

Railroad Infrastructure Projects:
1) Rebuild "Main Line" to Harrisburg (as is already in progress).
2) Restore Ivy Ridge to the Cynwyd line and make a connection to the ex-Reading branch.
3) Reading line (aka SVM). Diesel trains to 30th st.
4) Rebuild Bethlehem line. Diesel trains along Stoney Crk to 30th.
5) Double track Atlantic City Line.
6) Restore Cape May line to ACL
7) R3 to W. Chester
8) R8 to Newtown (F* the Pitcairns!)
9) others

Railroad Service Projects:
1) cheap clocker service from PHL to NYP
2) Hourly trains on ACL. Increase speeds.
3) Increase service on all SEPTA branches. Half Hourly service on Chestnut Hill branches off peak.
4) Increase speeds of all SEPTA trains. Loose "slowest commuter railroad" award.
5) toilets onboard SEPTA trains.

 #43012  by JeffK
 
Here's my nickel's worth:

Low-hanging fruit:

> Restore routes 15 & 23
> Repair/replace seating on MFSE
> Increase frequency on BSS, MFSE
> Resume express service on 100
> Clean stations and vehicles

Intermediate branches:

> 100 extension to K of P. Maybe a bit expensive in absolute terms, but very high ROI.
> Revamp fare collection
> Real-time information system
> Maximum peak RRD headway of a half-hour, off-peak one hour; halve those numbers on main routes such as R5.
> Restore trackless trolley service on all existing routes.

The big stuff:

> BSS Roosevelt Blvd. extension
> Quakertown restoration
> SVM - but diesel-hauled
> Restore R3 to West Chester
> BSS Navy Yard extension
> PATCO extension to University City (not SEPTA, but...)

Dreams:

> 3rd track for express service on the 100 between 69th and Bryn Mawr
> 102 extension to Granite Run
> Additional trackless routes in congested areas where fixed-rail streetcars may not be practical.

 #43037  by Sean@Temple
 
I give up my first born to get rid of those disgusting seats on the EL. Here is one for you, how about finishing that damn testing in the trolley tunnel. I am sick of taking the 42 bus home on weeknights when I am downtown.

Sean@Temple

 #43051  by Lucius Kwok
 
My immediate projects for SEPTA would be:

1. Hire a PR firm (if they already have one, hire a better one). Improve SEPTA's image.
2. Hire liasons or dedicated contact persons for each county, and for each councilperson in Philly, so that issues like the parking issue that is holding up Route 15 service don't happen again.
3. Lobby for dedicated funding for SEPTA.
4. Better coordination between the RRD and the rest of the system. Currently, bus schedules and routes don't match up well if you want to transfer to or from the railroad.
5. Renovating dilapdated stations, adding more parking at stations.

My long term projects for the region would be:

1. Philadelphia-Pottstown-Reading train service. If NJT can build the RiverLine, Septa can do this.
2. Route 100 extension
3. Roosevelt Blvd subway/el
4. R3 extension to West Chester

Maybe 30 years ago a strong-willed and influential leader could push through a project without any studies being done, but today, you must do the required environmental impact study, study several alternatives, and hold public meetings about any project. It's a result of the expressways that were built through neighborhoods in the city and caused environmental damage elsewhere. I don't think it's a bad idea to have some studies to make sure we're not making a big mistake.

But I think SEPTA is intentionally picking the most expensive alternative in order to guarantee that their project will be turned down by state and federal agencies. Why? Because if SEPTA were to build them, they would have an even bigger operating budget deficit.

 #43053  by Irish Chieftain
 
But I think SEPTA is intentionally picking the most expensive alternative in order to guarantee that their project will be turned down by state and federal agencies. Why? Because if SEPTA were to build them, they would have an even bigger operating budget deficit
But if they built the cheaper alternatives, they'd have a not-so-big operating deficit. Farebox revenue does help the bottom line, after all...

Related to that, I suspect SEPTA doesn't want to hire any more labor employees.
 #43059  by Matthew Mitchell
 
jsc wrote:Are these projects that you listed in order, Matt?
Just the order from the handout at the conference. AFAIK, there was no prioritization or other reason for numbering the projects the way they did. The object was just to get an idea of what the priorities of the people in attendance were.

 #43077  by Wdobner
 
I agree with a lot of what has been said, but have some questions...

Why would you want to run K-cars on the 56? I think it'd make a lot more sense to completely upgrade the 56 to the standards of the Subway Surface lines currently being rebuilt and then buy new low floor trams for the 15, 23 and 56. The surface trolley routes require little if any capitol expenditure to be made ADA compatible outside the new cars. The Subway Surface stations OTOH must have W/C Ramps or elevators installed to become ADA compatible. In the near future SEPTA only plans on making 13th and 15th ADA compatible, that still leaves most of the system non-compatible. UPenn might help offset the cost of making 36th-Sansom ADA compatible, but Drexel won't do jack-squat about 33rd, the geometry of 37th is awkward, and 19th and 22nd are low probability as well. Instead run the low floor LRVs on the 15, 23 and 56, then at the end of that order, get 120 more for the Subway Surface routes. In the interim between the purchase of the Low Floors and the retiring of the K-cars, the PCC IIs that were to ply the 15 can be upgraded to be CBTC compatible and run as ADA compliant trolleys on the Subway Surface lines.

Also why would the 23 and 15 be cheaper to bring into service than the Trackless Trolleys? The wires are almost all there, probably less than 1 mile of wire is actually damaged in the whole system and it's perfectly serviceable. SEPTA could get in on the E40LF order Vancouver has placed, perhaps even getting the same Kiepe IGBTs and such the PCC II fleet uses, so as to maintain some mechanical compatibility or at least reduce parts counts. IMHO the 23 is pretty gone in spots, and downtown's operations need to be rethought, perhaps including signal preemption, or making 12th a transit mall from Noble to Bainbridge with both north and southbound 23s on it, but there's a fat chance of that.

Why must the R3 go to West Chester? Why not extend outward to a growing area? Why not go to Kennett Square? Rebuild the bridge at Wawa, and perhaps have a branch off to West Chester, but the main traffic would go to Kennett Square, or perhaps Oxford. Didn't SEPTA close the R3 West Chester because they felt it was close enough for people to drive to Exton and such to catch a train to the city? It's clear that Kennett Square and places like Chadds Ford are much too far from the railheads and need better access to rail, which sending a rail line north to West Chester will not solve. Perhaps SEPTA's regional rail plans would be best served if they were more for filling in gaps missing from the radial layout than having lines head toward one another or extending outward. Lets serve more of Bucks, Montgomery, Philadelphia, Chester and Delaware Counties before we go giving service to Berks and Lancaster counties (it hasn't come up yet, but the R5 to Lancaster must be on Somebody's head). This would mean that the R8 Newtown is out, it's a duplication of the R3 West Trenton, the SVM to Reading is out, let BARTA build their own goddamn train, not saddle SEPTA with it, the R3 West Chester is out, it stops 5 miles short of the R5, Kennett Square is 10 miles from Thorndale, and 10 miles from Wilmington.

It may seem mundane, but IMHO the three biggest items on Mr. Mitchell's list were the 3 entries at the bottom, 14, 15, and 16. SEPTA needs to switch to a modern read-write farecard good on all services, they need to have a Busview-like system for getting information to passengers on the status of their trains, subways, trolleys and buses, and they need to run later and more often. All three of these are relatively cheap prospects that could have the effect of greatly increasing ridership by making transit easier to use. It'd be nice to have a card similar to NYCTA with 10 dollars stored on it in my wallet for use in emergencies. If SEPTA can manage true connectivity with the system and give RRD C/Rs a reader/debiting machine for the cards then we can maintain the great system wherein a monthly pass for regional rail works on the buses, and vice versa. It'd be great if I could check SEPTA's site and learn the R5 train has a 10 minute delay due to an amtrak train stuck on the main line, I'd know not to run for it, and instead could be planning ahead.

As for Busview, I only know of one city that uses it, Seattle's KC Metro, it's a Java Applet that shows the real-time position of nearly every bus out on a route, as well as giving ETAs, alerts when the bus reaches a certain point, and describing what bus is where. As railfans imagine the boon it would be to check SEPTA's TransitView and find out that 2308 was on the R3 today, or that 2329 is making a trip on the 13. Of course there might be productivity losses at some offices (I know mine might suffer), but I think all in all it'd be a good thin in the end.

http://busview.org/busview_launch.jsp
Do note that this link will launch Busview's applet as well as it's homepage.

 #43086  by Lucius Kwok
 
Irish Chieftain wrote: But if they built the cheaper alternatives, they'd have a not-so-big operating deficit. Farebox revenue does help the bottom line, after all...
Let's use an example. If SEPTA were to build the SVM, they would have to hire people to run and maintain the cars, lease track rights, pay for parts for repairs, and pay for fuel. Given that farebox revenue would at best cover 50% of operating costs, you're looking at a net negative contribution to the bottom line. The new service is losing money, and when you add it to the budget, the deficit is now bigger. If they had never built it, they would not be losing money on it, since the net contribution would be zero, as it is now.

Therefore, it is in SEPTA's interest to choose the option with the lowest operating cost, which usually is the one with the highest capital cost, such as a fully-automated people-mover system on a completely new and grade separated guideway.

 #43090  by Matthew Mitchell
 
Lucius Kwok wrote:Therefore, it is in SEPTA's interest to choose the option with the lowest operating cost, which usually is the one with the highest capital cost, such as a fully-automated people-mover system on a completely new and grade separated guideway.
<cynicism>or to hand out consulting and planning contracts for projects, but never get around to actually building them and starting service. Note the above also explains SEPTA's propensity to spend inordinate amounts on replacing old infrastructure, as on the RailWorks (NSM) project.</cynicism>

 #43100  by Lucius Kwok
 
RE: Low-floor cars: I think you still need to build platforms about 12"-18" above the railhead to be fully ADA-compliant without lifts. Most surface trolley lines run in the middle of the street and there are sometimes 6-inch "platforms" which are not really high enough.

I do think low-floor cars are a good idea. They only need about 50 cars for the 5 subway-surface lines, if they keep up on the maintenance.

RE: West Chester: The reason for West Chester over Kennett Square is that more people live in and around West Chester. I've driven around Kennet Square and it's mostly farmland (lots of mushroom farms). West Chester is much more urban and has three times the population of Kennett Square. Plus you have many employers in the area. You could also extend the line to Exton and have a transfer at Exton. West Chester used to have both a trolley and a railroad line, and it's very transit-friendly. It's also the county seat, so I would expect Chester Co to be able to kick in some money to run the service.

RE: fare cards: It would be nice to not have to carry around spare change to pay zone fares and transfers. I don't take SEPTA every day anymore, so I don't buy the monthly passes now. Stored-value cards make it easier for infrequent users of the system. [/quote]
 #43274  by worldtraveler
 
Here's my top 3 of 3:

Rapid Transit Lines:
1. Increase off-peak subway and el frequency
2. Run subway and el until 2:30am
3. Build the Roosevelt Blvd EL and BSS extension to Navy Yard

Regional Rail
1. Add the R4 to provide local service between Bryn Mawr and Ft. Washington-Allowing other lines to run express-ALL DAY
2. Speed travel times and improve parking at busy stations
3. Order new SV EMUs

Bus/Trolley:
1. Get the 15 trolley running
2. Institute Express Bus Service to various parts of Northeast Philly until the Blvd EL is complete
3. River to river- Vine to South, buses should only stop ever other block to decrease travel times.