Red Line to Brockton?

Hey all,

I was doing a bit of research on the subways, and found a tidbit that said that when the MBTA assigned letters to the Red Line, the A, B, and C letters, the "B" was for a possible route to Brockton. The A was for Quincy / Braintree and C for Ashmont.

This is the paragraph I found on Wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Line_(MBTA)

In 1968, letters were assigned to the south branches - "A" for Quincy (planned to extend to South Braintree) and "C" for Ashmont. "B" was probably reserved for a planned branch from Braintree to Brockton. As new rollsigns were made, this lettering was phased out. In 1994, new electronic signs included a different labeling - "A" for Ashmont, "B" for Braintree and "C" for Alewife. [2]

Does anybody know any information about this Brockton thing, why it was dropped, and if it's even remotely possible in the next 100 years?

I don't know that Brockton was ever in the official plans, but there was indeed a serious proposal for additional Red Line trackage on the south end. The MBTA's August 1966 "Master Plan" for the South Shore extension called for Phase 1 going to Braintree (which of course was built), Phase 2 a further extention to either Braintree Highlands or Holbrook, and Phase 3 an extension on the Greenbush right-of-way to Weymouth or Hingham.

These days, aside from construction costs, the restored commuter service on the Middleboro and Greenbush lines makes additional rapid transit extensions in that area unlikely. But I won't predict what will happen over the next hundred years!

Veristek wrote:Hey all,

I was doing a bit of research on the subways, and found a tidbit that said that when the MBTA assigned letters to the Red Line, the A, B, and C letters, the "B" was for a possible route to Brockton. The A was for Quincy / Braintree and C for Ashmont.

This is the paragraph I found on Wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Line_(MBTA)

In 1968, letters were assigned to the south branches - "A" for Quincy (planned to extend to South Braintree) and "C" for Ashmont. "B" was probably reserved for a planned branch from Braintree to Brockton. As new rollsigns were made, this lettering was phased out. In 1994, new electronic signs included a different labeling - "A" for Ashmont, "B" for Braintree and "C" for Alewife. [2]

Does anybody know any information about this Brockton thing, why it was dropped, and if it's even remotely possible in the next 100 years?

I think it was on the wish list after the Old Colony Service ceased on that ROW, but given how long it took to get the OL SW Corridor, RL Northwest extension, and the actual Braintree terminus up-and-running it never progressed much more past that point. And by this point the other planned extensions in other areas from the MTA days were either cancelled or significantly truncated from their original targets.

It would be very hard to do today because the Old Colony ROW is back, at capacity, and probably needs full 2-tracking on that ROW well before any RL extensions could be considered. Brockton's well-served by commuter rail...there would have to be a hell of a lot of metropolitanization on the South Shore in and around Brockton this century to really up the demand, and you would figure they'd be served by ever more frequent CR service well before anyone starts looking at the Red Line. Such an extension would also be way at the bottom of the wish list again after finishing the currently-delayed extensions on all other lines and probably reviving some of the other long-range MTA-era extensions to 128 on the speculative long-range wish list.

Also wouldn't be possible to do on the Red Line as presently constructed because of capacity. If Fairmount gets built using Red Line equipment and gets in the plans as the N-S rail link's rapid-transit line using RL equipment, then I think you open up a lot of southside expansion potential. But that itself is getting too far into the future.

Thanks for the info, guys.

I have another question. What are the likely options for Red Line expansions in the future? Lexington? Fairmount? Arlington? Watertown via Harvard? Or other possibilities?

I think the likeliest new Red Line will be conversion of the Fairmont Line to Red Line cars, as proposed by F-Line to Dudley on the Fairmount Line thread. This new line would not connect to the Red Line revenue trackage, but rather to the Red Line Cabot Yards. The line would terminate at new platforms at South Station, constructed where the Post Office building stands, which would be demolished. The new platforms could be two levels, with the Fairmount Line on the lower, underground level, facilitating future extension to North Station.

Veristek wrote:Thanks for the info, guys.

I have another question. What are the likely options for Red Line expansions in the future? Lexington? Fairmount? Arlington? Watertown via Harvard? Or other possibilities?

The NIMBY's would stop any expansion west of Alewife to Belmont/Arlington/Lexington...

Veristek wrote:Thanks for the info, guys.

I have another question. What are the likely options for Red Line expansions in the future? Lexington? Fairmount? Arlington? Watertown via Harvard? Or other possibilities?

The northwest extension was originally envisioned going in stages all the way to Lexington with express tracks for rush hour, but got NIMBY'd to death. Lexington will NEVER EVER happen because the NIMBY's are stronger than ever out there, but Arlington's getting mildly warmer to the idea. They're already all for improved bus connections from Arlington Center and other points to the Route 16 Green Line terminus since that's a pretty direct connection. So the city's trending towards more support for bringing the RL out to Arlington Ctr. and maybe Arlington Heights, and starting to regret the missed opportunity before. I still think you're probably looking at another 20 years before "warm to the idea" becomes "vocal lobbying", as Arlington grows into a preferred residential destination for people priced out of Cambridge and Somerville. And you'd more likely see the 77 re-TT'd or quasi-BRT'd before the Red Line got extended. So don't get your hopes up. It's also going to be more expensive than the other line expansion options (already-planned GL northside, GL extensions to Porter and/or West Medford, BL Lynn, Indigo, OL Needham/Dedham) that use existing above-ground CR ROW's with pre-existing space for any extra trackage. T already owns the land on the entire extension route because it's under the Minuteman bike path, which is by-law railbanked for transit re-use.

Extension past the current tunnel terminus in the middle of the soccer fields on the other side of Route 2 would go cut-and-cover under the Minuteman to Arlington Ctr. without disturbing any property, and only tricky part is waterproofing the tunnel near Spy Pond. But tunneling's still damn expensive any way, shape, or form...even with a logistically pretty simple one like this. And it falls way behind the Red-Blue connector and Urban Ring from BU to Longwood on possible new subway construction priority. The original proposal had it going above ground past Mill St. to Arlington Heights where the Minuteman / RR ROW starts crossing streets on bridges instead of grade crossings, but that would still be impossible to do without violent opposition so would have to be tunnel or bust to get out that far.

The only way it ever gets out to Lexington/128 is if Hanscom gets upgraded to a full regional passenger airport to take a load off Logan...itself an extremely controversial plan, but within the realm of possibility if the region just can't live without the expansion and the political will is mustered in a couple decades to ram it down the NIMBYs' throats anyway. At that point there'd become pressing need for transit connections to the airport, and you could see similar pressure to ram the Red Line through hell or high water to a Hanscom/128 station with federal money paying a lot of the way. But that's getting almost too speculative to think about because of how many things would have to happen first.

Charliemta wrote:I think the likeliest new Red Line will be conversion of the Fairmont Line to Red Line cars, as proposed by F-Line to Dudley on the Fairmount Line thread. This new line would not connect to the Red Line revenue trackage, but rather to the Red Line Cabot Yards. The line would terminate at new platforms at South Station, constructed where the Post Office building stands, which would be demolished. The new platforms could be two levels, with the Fairmount Line on the lower, underground level, facilitating future extension to North Station.

I dont think that would ever happen because of 2 factors

1. The readville shops would need to be converted to a rapid transit yard

2. CSX uses the Fairmount line to serve the Boston Globe

3. Some commuter rail trains use the line to go to Franklin

1. The readville shops would need to be converted to a rapid transit yard.
Not really. Judging from the linked aerial photo below, it looks like the Readville shops trackage could be reconfigured to have access from Readville junction instead of from the Fairmont Line. The right-of-way through Readville is wide enough for this, plus room for a two-track Red Line.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&F ... &encType=1

2. CSX uses the Fairmount line to serve the Boston Globe.
The Boston Globe is just one business.

3. Some commuter rail trains use the line to go to Franklin.
These could be rerouted to the SW Corridor.

Charliemta wrote:2. CSX uses the Fairmount line to serve the Boston Globe.
The Boston Globe is just one business.

The boston globe may not be around much longer...

Wouldn't tunneling fix some NIMBY'ism in Lexington?

Also, I could never understand NIMBY'ism in urban areas, especially with the horrible traffic jams, not being able to find parking, and all that stuff related to car travel. Subways solve this problem by letting people park outside Boston and not have to suffer huge jams either on I-93, I-495, 128, Pike, etc. plus inside Boston's cramped streets.

AFAIK the only Boston Globe siding is on the Old Colony line near JFK/UMass. There shouldn't be too much of a problem rerouting the local that serves it through Back Bay and Cove Interlocking.

Frankly, I'd rather see Silver Line Phase 3, the Green Line extension, and maybe even the completion of the original Reading-Needham Orange Line plan before I even start thinking about Red Line extensions.

I think we are straying off topic here! There are plenty of threads about fantasy expansion!!! This thread is about the Red Line being extended south to Brockton. Are we finished with the topic?

I don't know if this is related or not, but the destination signs on the 01800s say A - Ashmont, B- Braintree, and C - Alewife