NJT conductors with credit card machines

Odd that with the seemingly millions to be made by handheld device producers on NJT - and MN - and LIRR - and MBTA - and Metra - and MetroLink - and CalTrain - and Amtrak - and VIA - and any number of other passenger carriers - odd that not one of these handheld producers has come forward to trial or demo something.

Then again, maybe it's not really as easy as many think?

This idea is so stupid.
Jtgshu brings up all valid points about fare evasion.

Buy you're ticket before you board when theres a TVM or agent at the station. If you're late and gonna miss the train, then pay onboard with cash or wait for the next one.
Have no cash? Then theres an ATM around the corner.
Gonna miss the train? Then maybe its an educational lesson that should be learned that you should always carry spare cash on you.

So, in conclusion, it is not that hard to either:
1. Buy a ticket with a credit card before you board
OR
2. Buy a ticket onboard with cash

Grump wrote:This idea is so stupid.
Jtgshu brings up all valid points about fare evasion.

Buy you're ticket before you board when theres a TVM or agent at the station. If you're late and gonna miss the train, then pay onboard with cash or wait for the next one.
Have no cash? Then theres an ATM around the corner.
Gonna miss the train? Then maybe its an educational lesson that should be learned that you should always carry spare cash on you.

So, in conclusion, it is not that hard to either:
1. Buy a ticket with a credit card before you board
OR
2. Buy a ticket onboard with cash

This kind of argument reminds me of the Ford argument... "you can have any color car as long as it is black."

It works well when there is little or no competition...but the business will die as soon as a competitor finds the weakness and lack of response to a market demand.

Unfortunately, the competitor (highways) already have...it is called EZ Pass.

Companies that are myopic to market demands fail. (And if you don't think the market demands instantaneous credit card purchasing...take a look at how the fast food industry revolutionized the credit card use habits of Americans with fast authorization, no signing and “sweep your card” or “Blink” transactions.)

geoffand wrote:

Grump wrote:This idea is so stupid.
Jtgshu brings up all valid points about fare evasion.

Buy you're ticket before you board when theres a TVM or agent at the station. If you're late and gonna miss the train, then pay onboard with cash or wait for the next one.
Have no cash? Then theres an ATM around the corner.
Gonna miss the train? Then maybe its an educational lesson that should be learned that you should always carry spare cash on you.

So, in conclusion, it is not that hard to either:
1. Buy a ticket with a credit card before you board
OR
2. Buy a ticket onboard with cash

This kind of argument reminds me of the Ford argument... "you can have any color car as long as it is black."

It works well when there is little or no competition...but the business will die as soon as a competitor finds the weakness and lack of response to a market demand.

Unfortunately, the competitor (highways) already have...it is called EZ Pass.

Companies that are myopic to market demands fail. (And if you don't think the market demands instantaneous credit card purchasing...take a look at how the fast food industry revolutionized the credit card use habits of Americans with fast authorization, no signing and “sweep your card” or “Blink” transactions.)

EZ pass is not a good comparison to the TVM - its a fixed kind of scanning system - while the cars move, its not too much different than an overgrown grocery store scanner.

Its MUCH different trying to track people in an environment where they can move around. Its hard enough to get the tickets of the people who have them on the train now, it will be that much harder with a "TVM like" machine station on the train. If you could cut the roof off of a train, and look at the passengers vs. the trainmen on a train, is sort of like oil and water, like trying to scoop up that last Cheerio out of the bowl and how it always avoids the spoon..........

Having a TVM on board i think would end up COSTING revenue with people purposely dickin around with them, and especially no deterant for NOT having your ticket before boarding - everyone would get on without a ticket, "wait in line" for the TVM and then amazingly, their stop comes and they get off without having to pay anything. What is the trainman to do? Hold the train in each station for everyone to by their ticket from the TVM on board?

I think a better technology would be a scanner that would cancel tickets, sort of like they use at sporting events - or a scannable supermarket kind of key tag for a monthly or something like that - i would think that LESS paper and equipment would be the ultimate goal.

Grump wrote:From what I hear, Metro North is currently trying something with a machine that basically prints electronic tickets. No credit card sales at this time. Supposedly down the road the devices have the ability to be upgraded to process credit cards too. We'll see what happens.

I see it as being nothing but problems, even with the newer technology these days...
If you really need to buy your ticket with a credit/debit card, then buy it beforehand at an equipped station OR carry some freakin cash. Its not that hard to carry a $20 bill or two with you.
Theres nothing more ridiculous then when you go into a 7-11 and the moron infront of you buys a Snapple with a credit card. ATMs are everywhere.
I remember to wear pants in the morning. Remembering to carry cash isn't that much harder.

I could only imagine the trainman that tells the passenger that their card is declined and the ensuing argument that the machine must be wrong. Or when the rearbrake is doing a credit card transaction thats taking a long time to authorize and he has to run back to get the doors...

i'm sorry, but i simply cannot understand people who have this attitude. what's this childish obsession with cash? why would i want to carry it? all it does is take up extra room in my pocket, and allow for the possibility of being stolen. that and i have to go to an atm and pay some extra fees to get it in the first place. no thanks, i'll take my plastic, thin, no-paying-for-unauthorized-charges and tracking-my-expenses credit card any day over that.

it's been done in europe *everywhere* for years. the fact that there are still places in this country that don't accept plastic at all is completely beyond me. instead of having conductors walk around with wads of cash and coin stacks, why not give them a small, light, hand-held device and *require* people to pay with credit on board. the other day i was flying on aloha airlines to hawaii and this is exactly what they did for all of their on-board purchases (alcohol, snacks, etc.). "bravo" is all i can say to a move like that.

Jtgshu wrote: and its amazing, these same folks who are skimming the system are the first to complain when the trian is late, breaks down, or fares increase. Meanwhile, most of those who have the right ticket just sit back and relax...........

Because a$$%#&@$ are always a$$%#&@$, and good people are always good.

If they imbed RFD chips in the tickets they could be read without even having to be presented and I could enjoy my naps uninterrupted.

Better yet, if they imbed the RDF chip in the people I would never have to worry about losing or forgetting my monthly.

CC machines will not make another appearance on the trains in the upcoming future. You have guys that can't count cash and now you want them to add credit card receipts to this, WOW. In addition, cash has been working fine for years, why would NJT invest $ into something that they don't care about, "on board revenue".

Better idea, have the ticket agents stay open longer, add more tvm's. 1-3 tvm's really doesn't work at these stations, make it 5-8 tvm's per station.

Boxcar

Jtgshu wrote: EZ pass is not a good comparison to the TVM - its a fixed kind of scanning system - while the cars move, its not too much different than an overgrown grocery store scanner.

But it adds conveinence to driving. Putting technological difficulties aside... the "highways" have made it easier to "pay on the go" while NJT made it harder to "pay on the go" by instituting a surcharge.

Having a TVM on board i think would end up COSTING revenue with people purposely dickin around with them, and especially no deterant for NOT having your ticket before boarding - everyone would get on without a ticket, "wait in line" for the TVM and then amazingly, their stop comes and they get off without having to pay anything. What is the trainman to do? Hold the train in each station for everyone to by their ticket from the TVM on board?

The reality is you'd have the same idiot who always tries to fare jump making the same scene as before... There is one on every train. I don't think you would have "everyone" get on the train without a ticket...given you can only buy one-way tickets and a surcharge. So, maybe 3 people per car looking to buy a ticket. The machines would have to be fast... 30 seconds or less per person.

I think a better technology would be a scanner that would cancel tickets, sort of like they use at sporting events - or a scannable supermarket kind of key tag for a monthly or something like that - i would think that LESS paper and equipment would be the ultimate goal.

This does nothing to make purchasing a ticket easier. It only makes the job of the trainmen easier and provides more protection from counterfeit tickets.

With the idea of fixed TVMs on cars, here is the real problem as mentioned.

You will have people onboard the train with the ability to basically buy the ticket at their own leisure or pace. You will have people saying they have to go find another machine because the one particular machine wouldn't read their swipe. Legitimate fare dodging would be made easier tenfold.
Suppose you're gonna sell a ticket with surcharge to a passenger "the old fashioned way". What if they say "I'm gonna get up and use the TVM in the other car?" The conductor loses control and basically gives the passenger a chance to walk away. How about the person that just hangs out near the TVM saying they're "on line".

And the fixed TVMs would require a continous wireless internet connection or the ability to be downloaded and processed after the trip. Now hows that gonna work with quick turns?

Why is it believed that everything must accept credit cards? Enough of this well its the sign of the times and its the future bullcrap.
WHAT IS PRACTICAL?

Work on the train(not post on the forum) everyday and see what goes on, and you'll easily see why this concept is flawed at the least.

And I think thats about all I'm gonna say on this topic.

Hopefully.

Pardon my naivete, but I do not see what the big deal is.

Although European references seen to be frowned upon by US railroaders, German conductors carry portable machines that both electronically print tickets and accept credit cards on trains. The whole process takes about the same time as it does for a conductor on our side of the pond to punch out a ticket and collect fare. The machine is is slung over the shoulder and train loading over there is comparable to here.

It seems to me that this would give full flexiblity to everyone and prevent fare dodgers completly.

How much $$ will this system cost vs how much more $$ would it generate? It sounds like a net money loser.

By the way, the trains in France I took had no such system. Maybe it's in place "all over Europe for years" on the long distance (Amtrakish) trains, but comparable commuter trains around Paris have ticket agents and TVMs at the stations.

France is France and Germany is, well, Germany.

As for "comuter" like trains, there is no fair comparison. The closest one could get to NJT in Germany are the Regional trains (Regional locals and Expresses). They are operated by the German railway under contract by the local states and the conductors do carry the electronic machines. It is real nice, at least from a customer perspective, to have the option of just jumping on the train, knowing that the ticket can be paid even if there is not cash in the wallet. We do live in 2007, don't we? As stated this covers all trains from NJTish to Amtrakish trains.

In a German city, there are subways and the "suburban" trains which are just glorified subways. Yes, here everything is done with a TVM and the "honor" system. If you are caught without a ticket it is a 60 EUR fine (about 85 USD these days).

geoffand wrote:

Jtgshu wrote: EZ pass is not a good comparison to the TVM - its a fixed kind of scanning system - while the cars move, its not too much different than an overgrown grocery store scanner.

But it adds conveinence to driving. Putting technological difficulties aside... the "highways" have made it easier to "pay on the go" while NJT made it harder to "pay on the go" by instituting a surcharge.

Having a TVM on board i think would end up COSTING revenue with people purposely dickin around with them, and especially no deterant for NOT having your ticket before boarding - everyone would get on without a ticket, "wait in line" for the TVM and then amazingly, their stop comes and they get off without having to pay anything. What is the trainman to do? Hold the train in each station for everyone to by their ticket from the TVM on board?

The reality is you'd have the same idiot who always tries to fare jump making the same scene as before... There is one on every train. I don't think you would have "everyone" get on the train without a ticket...given you can only buy one-way tickets and a surcharge. So, maybe 3 people per car looking to buy a ticket. The machines would have to be fast... 30 seconds or less per person.

I think a better technology would be a scanner that would cancel tickets, sort of like they use at sporting events - or a scannable supermarket kind of key tag for a monthly or something like that - i would think that LESS paper and equipment would be the ultimate goal.

This does nothing to make purchasing a ticket easier. It only makes the job of the trainmen easier and provides more protection from counterfeit tickets.

Dude - Maybe 3 people per car looking to buy a ticket? Maybe at each station!!!........ and as soon as they would realize that they could get there at the train arrival time and get their tickets on the train (maybe) there would be no reason to get to the station early and use the TVMs on the platform. So now all these people would just "wait in line" for the TVM on the train, who formally used to have their tickets purchased at the TVM on the platform. Even with the "convenience charge"

Okay, maybe not everyone - but a much larger percentage than you could imagine. Folks would keep tickets in their wallet and wait in line for the TVM just so they could say "im in line" knowing full well that their stop is coming up.

To see how this would play out, ride a train when they suspend the penalty for a few days and it catches on......people purposely purchase tickets even though they have them in their wallet because why would they have a ticket out to be collected, when they could "wait in line" to purchase one from the trainman and maybe not ever have to pay because of the number of other people trying to do the same thing, and then the one person who is taking their time going through their wallet, looking in each pocket for their cash, pulling out every thing possible out of their pockets to simply stall for time.

How do I know? Because Ive played the games with the commuters and passengers for several years. I know MOST of the tricks, but I was always amazed at new ways they would try to get things over on me. Sometimes it would work, most times it wouldn't.

Maybe some kind of technology could replace the paper CFR's and cash system the trainmen use know for on board purchases. But I don't think that will happen for a while. Too much of a capital outlay, not enough of a return. I think in the meantime, you might see a move towards making purchasing and using tickets easier, as I mentioned above. A more realistic and benefical idea for NJT.

baldwr wrote:In a German city, there are subways and the "suburban" trains which are just glorified subways. Yes, here everything is done with a TVM and the "honor" system.

Just like France! Just like NJ Transit!