• Whats so wrong with Airtrain JFK?

  • Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.
Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

Moderator: Liquidcamphor

  by NIMBYkiller
 
Airtrain is great, alone. But it sucks ass when it tries to tango with the rest of NYCs transit system. It's incompatible with everything else we've got. It only takes you to Howard Beach or Jamaica(which is good for LIers though, except for the PW line folks).

And all this talk about sending it to downtown is just a pipe dream that would screw over us locals for the sake tourists.

As for LGA, yeah, I agree, that I think was more important the JFK. I think they should just extend it like Rail Blue on Subchat detailed. Extend it up to the PW line, over to Shea, have a stop there, then up to LGA. From there, continue to the new Sunnyside station, and if possible, into the old trolley terminal at 2nd/59th in Manhattan.

There'd also be a branch from LGA to Flushing.

As for the Rockaway ROW, I say light rail. Run it down Queens Blvd(which is definately wide enough to sacrafice 2 lanes for dedicated light rail ROW) to the ROW, then down the ROW to Howard Beach. The line is 4 tracks along the subway. The light rail can use the 2 inner tracks.

As far as subway extensions go, I say Astoria line to LGA, 7 to Whitestone.

  by 4 Express
 
NIMBYkiller wrote:And all this talk about sending it to downtown is just a pipe dream that would screw over us locals for the sake tourists.
Especially is it means using the LIRR's Atlantic Branch.
NIMBYkiller wrote:As for LGA, yeah, I agree, that I think was more important the JFK. I think they should just extend it like Rail Blue on Subchat detailed. Extend it up to the PW line, over to Shea, have a stop there, then up to LGA. From there, continue to the new Sunnyside station, and if possible, into the old trolley terminal at 2nd/59th in Manhattan.

There'd also be a branch from LGA to Flushing.
I agree, but there would need to be more stations than the ones you explained.
NIMBYkiller wrote:As far as subway extensions go, I say Astoria line to LGA
Like I said, Astoria NIMBY's will oppose it unless you start doing your job.

  by 4 Express
 
NIMBYkiller wrote:And all this talk about sending it to downtown is just a pipe dream that would screw over us locals for the sake tourists.
Especially if it means using the LIRR's Atlantic Branch.
NIMBYkiller wrote:As for LGA, yeah, I agree, that I think was more important the JFK. I think they should just extend it like Rail Blue on Subchat detailed. Extend it up to the PW line, over to Shea, have a stop there, then up to LGA. From there, continue to the new Sunnyside station, and if possible, into the old trolley terminal at 2nd/59th in Manhattan.

There'd also be a branch from LGA to Flushing.
I agree, but there would need to be more stations than the ones you explained.
NIMBYkiller wrote:As far as subway extensions go, I say Astoria line to LGA
Like I said, Astoria NIMBY's will oppose it unless you start doing your job.
  by jtr1962
 
One of One-Sixty wrote:I was on the Van Wyck today using that to jump from the LIE to SSP/Belt Pkwy in attempt to get to Staten island, and I know I here you guys complain about Airtrain JFK.

My question is what is so wrong with it?
Basically two things are wrong with it. The astronomical cost is one, although I suppose that is a factor of building anything in a place where you need to build around existing infrastructure. Number two and more important is that it's not a one-seat ride to Manhattan. Unless it is, it just won't attract sufficient numbers of riders to justify its cost.

A distant number three here has to do with the future viability of air travel although I doubt that was even considered during the planning stages. Given ever rising fuel prices, I feel commercial air travel on the scale that exists today will be a thing of the past within a decade. It will revert to being mainly a province of the well to do as it was pre-1950s. Given that scenario, the NYC metro area will easily be served by one airport, not three. If the remaining airport turns out not to be Kennedy, then the money was completely wasted. However, I think LaGuardia will be the first to close. For starters it can't handle 747s. Pilots routinely complain that it's like landing on an aircraft carrier. Finally, noise complaints in crowded downtown Flushing may be the final nail in the coffin. NYC stands to gain a great deal in real estate taxes once all the prime waterfront property LaGuardia is on is developed. That'll leave Kennedy and Newark. I really don't know enough to say which of those two would be shut down first but basically the AirTrain is a gamble that Kennedy will remain the last major airport.

  by Nasadowsk
 
<i>A distant number three here has to do with the future viability of air travel although I doubt that was even considered during the planning stages. Given ever rising fuel prices, I feel commercial air travel on the scale that exists today will be a thing of the past within a decade. It will revert to being mainly a province of the well to do as it was pre-1950s.</i>

Doubtful:

* Where will the traffic shift to? Not Amtrak - far too slow and far too unreliable, not to mention the marginally better economy provided by US style rail operations means fuel costs/use won't drop much..

* The next generation of airliners comming in the next 5 or so years will deliver significantly better economy. It's very possible that within 15 years, the average airliner will in fact be more efficient than an Amtrak-style train.

* There's a few more radical concepts on the drawing board that could increase efficiency even more. Stuff like geared turbofans, relaxed stabiltity, and very high composite percentages, plus who knows what aerodynamic advances. Some of it's in the military, some of it's been tested, some of it's yet to be discovered.

* More likely, you'll see a shift towards larger turboprop aircraft, which enjoy a significant economy advantage with only marginal speed reductions. Today's Embraer might be tomorrow's 737...

* A viable high sped rail system (i.e., average speeds between 90 and 110mph. That's average speed, not top speed) might shift short haul traffic to rail. Don't expect this to happen in the US anytime soon.

  by jtr1962
 
Nasadowsk wrote:Doubtful:

* Where will the traffic shift to?
It won't shift to anywhere. Rather, as the cost goes up the demand will just be reduced like any other commodity. The majority of trips people take by plane are completely optional, hence demand is highly elastic. After 9/11 we discovered that people traveled for business not because they had to, but because they wanted to. Since many no longer wanted to, the number of business trips was sharply down. It will drop even further as plane trips become more expensive. Ditto for vacation travel, the demand for which is even more elastic than business travel.

Other problems besides high fuel costs affecting the airline industry are that plane travel is increasingly being perceived as inconvenient and unsafe. The very fact that an AirTrain is needed illustrates one crucial drawback of plane travel-the need to locate airports miles from city centers, thus negating much of the average speed advantages planes provide. Air travel also includes lengthy security checks, and of course the ever present problem of crashes, most of which are 100% fatal.

Airliners also cause severe environmental problems such as pollution and noise. Don't underestimate this last problem. People near airports are becoming increasing tired of enduring constant noise caused by a method of transport most seldom use. New airliners may be somewhat quieter, but they're still noisy, and airlines cutting costs to the bone will continue to use the older, noisy airliners for as long as they can. You're not going to see any of the new, more fuel efficient airliners you described in use until much higher fuel prices force the issue. It takes a lot of fuel savings to pay back the multi-billion dollar investment that a new fleet of planes represents. Even then, if you're going to spend so much on new planes, then building a high-speed rail line instead doesn't seem so bad after all. At least the railway fits into a sustainable economy model, the new planes really don't since they depend upon a non-renewable resource for energy.

The hard fact is that within 50 years planes will have to be replaced with something else that doesn't burn fossil fuels. A fusion-powered airliner might be one (highly unlikely) possibility. More likely is conventional high-speed rail for medium distances, maglev for somewhat longer distances, and maglev in a vacuum tube for very long distances. All can run on electric generated from any number of non-fossil fuel sources. An airliner can't. Better yet, all can offer average door-to-door speeds better than airliners over their respective distances.
A viable high sped rail system (i.e., average speeds between 90 and 110mph. That's average speed, not top speed) might shift short haul traffic to rail. Don't expect this to happen in the US anytime soon.
Well, I'm not sure I consider 90 to 110 mph average speeds "high", but I am sure that I don't share your skepticism. Sure, we won't build high-speed rail solely to replace air traffic, but rather to replace air and most long-distance auto traffic. I personally think the idea will be viable once gas stays above $5 per gallon. Many economists feel this is only a few years away. In Europe where gas prices have been at this level high-speed rail works quite well. I imagine the first lines will be medium haul, and will entirely eliminate the shuttle portion of the airline business plus a lot of interstate car trips. After that, we might have 225 mph trunk lines which could capture the plane trips up to 1000 miles. NYC to Chicago in 4.5 hours would all but eliminate flights between those two cities. What will be left? Longer domestic flights and overseas flights. Those can easily be served by one regional airport. Eventually when the fuel runs out we'll have to find a way to replace those last remaining flights. My guess is by 2050 or sooner you'll see those maglev in a vacuum tube ideas become reality.

I personally wouldn't hedge my bets on anything of the airline industry surviving much past the next 50 years. The only sensible venue for flight in the future is to get into space so we'll probably have space ports of some sort. I really wish the city would start making long-term plans to shut down at least one of the airports, preferably LaGuardia since those flights are more amenable to replacement by rail.
  by Head-end View
 
From a rail-buff's point of view the Airtrain is terrific, albeit expensive. It's a great ride. With no operator on the train you can stand at the huge front window enjoying the view, and even (gasp) take photos !
I did that a while back and half expected the cops to be waiting for me at Jamaica, but it didn't happen. :wink:

  by Long Island 7285
 
And now we will see signs like on the bridges, ( photography or videography is prohibited by law )